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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110866
03/30/09 07:14 PM
03/30/09 07:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Do you agree that in the case Jews and Romans in 70 AD "the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty" involved humans killing each other? If so, do you think this example implies God will punish the wicked at the end of time by permitting them to kill each other? For example, do you see a parallel in the following passage? The passage cited doesn't have people killing one another, does it?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110903
03/30/09 11:03 PM
03/30/09 11:03 PM
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Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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It seems that each time you want to spin away from the actual content of GC 672-673 and EW294 - you do so with the kind of argument as listed above. Bob, it appears Tom believes the "fire" described in these passages is symbolic of the internal torment the wicked experience when the stand before the Great White Throne. Of course one cannot be sure what he believes since he is not forthcoming. If that sequence is what he believes then his solution is contradicted by the inconvenient details in both Rev 20 and in GC672-673 where the wicked are seen to plainly stand before God WITHOUT burning at all. And then after the judgment are - burned in the lake of fire where they "then" suffer the second death. there is no "standing before the judgment seat of God is the second death" in all of scripture -- or in GC 672-673 -- as I am sure we all can admit. in Christ, Bob
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110905
03/30/09 11:06 PM
03/30/09 11:06 PM
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1. Again - you are simply ignoring details trying to spin a case for eisegeting your ideas INTO the text -- when in fact the text (such as GC672-673 so diligently NOT being quoted in this statement of yours) is very clearly NOT using apocalyptic symbols NOR is it written in a foreign language.
2. In the case above you ignore the fact that it was not until 1902 that Ellen White commented that "Many more years" would be invovled before the second coming. Hence no reference to "Unmanned Arial Vehicles" in her predictions of the time of the end some number of DECADES prior to 1902.
It seems that each time you want to spin away from the actual content of GC 672-673 and EW294 - you do so with the kind of argument as listed above.
I clearly point to the "many more years" problem that you are simply choosing to "completely ignore" in your question. A key detail that solves your question before it even gets started... because (obviously) your question "needs many more years" to remove the weapon of swords from common use.
I keep pointing this out and you keep refusing to address it. I find the logic in that approach somewhat illusive.
Even more importantly -- there does not exist a "funny kind of exegesis" for text-A that is in the form of "proof by puzzle" (no matter how simple) of text-B.
Your argument remains stuck then - at the point of text-A (GC 673, EW294) where we observe that the literary work itself is not written in a foreign language nor is it using apocalyptic symbols, nor is it loaded symbols and simile such as "Swords fall LIKE straws". We simply accept the text as it reads.
Bob, I don't understand your answer to the swords question. Were they literal or not? Which words or sentences above did you find difficult or confusing? I will be very happy to explain them in more detail if you will kindly point to the area of difficulty. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/30/09 11:07 PM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110936
03/31/09 01:31 AM
03/31/09 01:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't see that you answered the question. Just answer it "yes" or "no" and give an explanation please. Please start with "yes" or "no" though.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110955
03/31/09 12:23 PM
03/31/09 12:23 PM
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Posts: 6,512
Midland
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We simply accept the text as it reads. Bob, do you accept the following text as it reads? When mankind had spread all over the world, and girls were being born, some of the supernatural beings saw that these girls were beautiful, so they took the ones they liked...
...there were giants on the earth who were descendants of the human women and the supernatural beings. Genesis 6:1-2,4
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110989
03/31/09 06:48 PM
03/31/09 06:48 PM
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Thank you, Claudia, for reminding us of the obvious. sometimes discussions become so convoluted we cannot see the forest for the trees. You're right, God will employ fire to punish the wicked according to their sinfulness. No doubt about it. True, God is loathe to punish. He is working very hard to woo and win our hearts and allegiance. But there comes a time when mercy stops and justice and judgment begins. God will not be trifled with. MM, I thought you said you changed your mind about the wicked's being burned by fire. I'm confused about what you think now. I didn't mean to mislead you. Let me clarify what I believe. I used to think the wicked would be engulfed in the flames that cover the earth and that God would somehow regulate it so that they burned in accordance with their sinfulness. But after studying with you I no longer believe they will be engulfed in flames. The inspired record doesn't portray it that way. It simply says there will be literal fire on the earth at the same time the wicked are suffering in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. The heat of the fire will cause them to feel pain in intensity proportionate to their sinfulness.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110995
03/31/09 08:46 PM
03/31/09 08:46 PM
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God will not be trifled with. What does this mean? God decides He's had enough? So He lashes out in righteous indignation? Something like that? Memories of Israel's past glory stood out in sharp contrast with the evidences of her present degradation. Because she had disregarded the word of God, rejected reproof, and refused to correct her ways, she had been left to be thus reduced in power and honor among the nations. The people for whom God had so wonderfully wrought, had trifled with their privileges, set at naught his counsels, and joined themselves to his enemies, until he had withdrawn from them his special presence and protection. (The Southern Watchman, March 22, 1904) How about something like the above? God cannot be trifled with means that His counsels may not be set at naught with impunity, as doing so causes His special presence and protection to be withdrawn. Yes, it certainly includes this aspect. But it also includes the following aspects: The Lord will not be trifled with. Those who neglect His mercies and blessings in this day of opportunities will bring impenetrable darkness upon themselves and will be candidates for the wrath of God. Sodom and Gomorrah were visited with the curse of the Almighty for their sins and iniquities. There are those in our day who have equally abused the mercies of God and slighted His warnings. It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for those who bear the name of Christ, yet dishonor Him by their unconsecrated lives. This class are laying up for themselves a fearful retribution when God in His wrath shall visit them with His judgments. {4T 191.2} They have trifled with offered mercy, and the frown of God is upon them. God's Spirit will not always be grieved. It will depart if grieved a little longer. After all has been done that God could do to save men, if they show by their lives that they slight Jesus' offered mercy, death will be their portion, and it will be dearly purchased. It will be a dreadful death; for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross to purchase for them the redemption which they have refused. And they will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance. The great sacrifice that has been made to save souls shows us their worth. When the precious soul is once lost, it is lost forever. {1T 124.1} It is God who holds in His hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; He will not always be trifled with. Already His judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and shipwreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword and famine, follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. {5T 234.1}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#111000
03/31/09 09:01 PM
03/31/09 09:01 PM
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M: "Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." The punishment inflicted on the Jews involved humans killing humans. Are you suggesting God will punish the wicked at the end of time by permitting them to kill each other? Don't you believe sin is what will kill sinners at the end of time? T: I think I quoted this, didn't I? Here's the quote: We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36) T: What's going on here? Here's the underlined portion: But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. T: This is what the statement is talking about. The "decisive testimony" is not about humans killing other humans, but about the necessity of God's protection. M: Do you agree that in the case of the Jews and Romans in 70 AD "the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty" involved humans killing each other? If so, do you think this example implies God will punish the wicked at the end of time by permitting them to kill each other? For example, do you see a parallel in the following passage? Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2} T: The passage cited doesn't have people killing one another, does it? How do you interpret - "Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." Also, do you think the case of the Jews and the Romans in 70 AD involved people killing one another? And, do you think this case is indicative of what will happen to the wicked at the end of time? Or, do you think certain things do not apply?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#111002
03/31/09 09:11 PM
03/31/09 09:11 PM
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B: It seems that each time you want to spin away from the actual content of GC 672-673 and EW294 - you do so with the kind of argument as listed above.
M: Bob, it appears Tom believes the "fire" described in these passages is symbolic of the internal torment the wicked experience when the stand before the Great White Throne. Of course one cannot be sure what he believes since he is not forthcoming.
B: If that sequence is what he believes then his solution is contradicted by the inconvenient details in both Rev 20 and in GC672-673 where the wicked are seen to plainly stand before God WITHOUT burning at all. And then after the judgment are - burned in the lake of fire where they "then" suffer the second death. There is no "standing before the judgment seat of God is the second death" in all of scripture -- or in GC 672-673 -- as I am sure we all can admit. Again, Tom believes the "lake of fire" symbolizes the emotional agony the wicked experience as they revisit their sins in judgment in the presence of God's glory. He does not view judgment and the lake of fire as sequential events but rather as synonymous events. I am still waiting for him to post passages he believes depicts literal fire burning the wicked to ashes after they die. He doesn't believe they are exposed to literal fire until they suffer and die.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111009
03/31/09 10:10 PM
03/31/09 10:10 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I didn't mean to mislead you. Let me clarify what I believe. I used to think the wicked would be engulfed in the flames that cover the earth and that God would somehow regulate it so that they burned in accordance with their sinfulness. But after studying with you I no longer believe they will be engulfed in flames. The inspired record doesn't portray it that way. It simply says there will be literal fire on the earth at the same time the wicked are suffering in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. The heat of the fire will cause them to feel pain in intensity proportionate to their sinfulness. Well, that's somewhat better. Not quite as cruel and Satanic as being engulfed with flames would be. What do you do with Bob's argument? That is: Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." This speaks of the fire consuming the wicked, and doing so until there is no particle left. How does this happen without the wicked's being engulfed in flames? Also, what sense does it make that they would feel heat in proportion to their sinfulness? That's not the way fire works. It burns all over the place. Would God funnel certain sinners to different places where the fire is hotter? Are their feet glued down so that can't run away somewhere else where the fire is cooler?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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