Mike said,

quote:

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I do not believe there is such a thing as unknown defective traits of character.

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The only way that can be true, that we can't have unknown defective traits of character, is if we're omniscient, having perfect knowledge of ourselves. But that's not the case. God can reveal faults to us over time, but we don't become 100% aware of every fault we have instantly at conversion.

I agree with you on that John.
God Bless,
Will

John, good point. However, even unconverted people are fully aware of their imperfections, and are capable, without the aid of the Holy Spirit, of making outward corrections. "They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life." SC 18.

So, even before we are born again we are already aware of our moral defects, and some of us work to correct them, and manage to do pretty well for ourselves. But the difference is when we see our sinful traits of character in light of the cross. And that's what happens during the process of conversion, before we experience the miracle of rebirth.

It is during the process of conversion that God reveals our old man habits of sin, in light of the cross, no faster than He is able to influence us to confess them. It's not that we are unaware of them, but that we are seeing them, for the first time, in light of the cross. But according to the Bible and Sister White, the old man does not actually die until we confess the last of our revealed defects. Once dead, we are free from sin, we are no longer the slaves of sin, self or Satan.

God implants within us the sinless mind of the new man the moment we are born again. This mind comes complete with all of the holy character attributes of God and all of the fruits of the Spirit. Not one is missing. Although we are born again morally complete in Christ, we are not born again morally mature. Like Jesus, we must grow in grace and mature morally.

But growth in grace does not involve gradually discovering and overcoming so-called unknown moral imperfections. All that happens during the process of conversion, before we are born again, before we receive the sinless mind of the new mind. Besides, there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. If we are abiding in Christ, we grow from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - not from greater sins to lesser sins.

By the way - Happy 160th anniversary, Everybody. Hopefully we can finish the gospel commission before the next anniversary. God help us!

October 22, 1844.

If I understand what you are saying Mike is that a person prior to being converted are already made aware of their defective moral imperfections, and after they are converted they are perfect and can will sin no more?
God Bless,
Will

Will, that's pretty close to what I believe the Bible and the SOP says. During the process of conversion God shows us our moral defects in light of the cross. If we keep pace, and confess them as they are revealed, we eventually come to the last defect. When we confess our last defect our old man (i.e., defective traits of character) dies. Then we are born again a new man in Christ. And, so long as we are abiding in Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known, that is, repeat one of our former sins. We will feel the urge, the temptation, to sin like we used to, but in Christ we are able to resist unto the honor and glory of God. If we do sin, the Holy Spirit immediately begins offering us the free gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. Then God restores the relationship our sin severed, and we resume walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Hi Mike,
So the Spirit and mind of the new man is to seek Christ and as we look to Him then we see who we truly are or something along those lines correct?
God Bless,
Will

Sort of. Once our old man is dead and buried, once we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, our defective traits of character have already been revealed, confessed and forsaken. Thus, it's a done deal.

However, our sinful flesh nature (not our old man defects and imperfections) continues to bombard us with unholy thoughts and feelings, which we must disown as the voice of Satan. Sometimes, though, it is hard to tell the difference between being tempted and being guilty of them.

But, it is not a sin to be tempted, and all temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. If we immediately turn to Jesus, to resist them, we are not guilty. Too many believers, however, automatically assume they are guilty.

Some people are under the impression that once a defective trait of character is crucified they will no longer be tempted in that area. But this assumption is unbiblical. Yes, some old habits die out completely, never to harass us again, but most must be guarded against until Jesus returns - impatience, anger, jealousy, pride, etc.

Since our old man is dead, such things originate from within our sinful nature. And sinful nature is something we will have to war against until Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one. So, we have to be careful not to confuse sinful nature and sinful character. If we're not careful, we are likely to twist the promises of God to serve a lie.

Tom, I addressed this post somewhere. I agree with the following points:

1. Salvation has been available since the first sin.

2. We are born sinful and sinning.

3. The goodness of God motivates us to repent.

4. If we do not resist the Holy Spirit we will experience the miracle of rebirth.

5. The Holy Spirit empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan.

But I do not believe everyone is pardoned and counted sinless. Only those who accept Jesus as their personal saviour are justified and forgiven. Jesus cannot and will not justify unforgiven sinners, because there is no excuse for sinning.

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

RC 96
The law of God is the only true standard of moral perfection. That law was practically exemplified in the life of Christ. He says of Himself, "I have kept my Father's commandments" (John 15:10). Nothing short of this obedience will meet the requirements of God's Word. "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6). We cannot plead that we are unable to do this, for we have the assurance, "My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Cor. 12:9). As we look into the divine mirror, the law of God, we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and our own lost condition as transgressors. But by repentance and faith we are justified before God, and through divine grace enabled to render obedience to His commandments. {RC 96.4}

3 SM 191, 192
It is important that we understand clearly the nature of faith. There are many who believe that Christ is the Saviour of the world, that the gospel is true and reveals the plan of salvation, yet they do not possess saving faith. They are intellectually convinced of the truth, but this is not enough; in order to be justified, the sinner must have that faith that appropriates the merits of Christ to his own soul. We read that the devils "believe, and tremble," but their belief does not bring them justification, neither will the belief of those who give a merely intellectual assent to the truths of the Bible bring them the benefits of salvation. This belief fails of reaching the vital point, for the truth does not engage the heart or transform the character. {3SM 191.4}

In genuine, saving faith, there is trust in God, through the belief in the great atoning sacrifice made by the Son of God on Calvary. In Christ, the justified believer beholds his only hope and deliverer. Belief may exist without trust, but confidence born of trust cannot exist without faith. Every sinner brought to a knowledge of the saving power of Christ, will make manifest this trust in greater degree as he advances in experience.-- Signs of the Times, Nov. 3, 1890. {3SM 192.1}