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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#110909
03/30/09 11:29 PM
03/30/09 11:29 PM
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OP
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It sounds like you think I have been consistent in my comments regarding Group 2. I have also consistently asked you to post passages that describe rebirth the way you see it, namely, people continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to rebirth. So far you have not honored this request. Please do so. But what I believe regarding Group 1 is no different than what you believe. So why don't you quote something? Because I don't know of any. I assume you know lots of them. Do you know of any?
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#110914
03/30/09 11:54 PM
03/30/09 11:54 PM
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M: Tom, do you agree that 8 out of 10 commandments begin with "Thou shalt not"? If so, do you agree it pin points what not to do, that it prohibits specific actions? If not, what do you think it means?
T: I think the meaning of the law was taught by Christ. Especially the Sermon on the Mount explains its meaning. Does this answer imply you do not agree that 8 out of 10 commandments prohibit specific things? M: Do have a problem with God blacklisting specific actions?
T: My "problem" is with your interpretation of things, which, IMO, is superficial. What is superficial about the sins blacklisted in the Bible? M: Also, do you think the ten commandments overlook what you refer to as the "more subtle sins"?
T: Not at all, which is my point. The "more subtle things" cannot be encapsulated in the lists you're referring to, at least not in a helpful way. One could have a list which has the item "unChristlike" on it, which would cover everything, but how does this get you any closer to knowing God's will than you were before? So, it sounds like you believe the law of God prohibits all sins, including the "more subtle sins". But it also sounds like you believe the law of God isn't useful or "helpful" in knowing the will of God. Ellen observed: The glory of Christ is revealed in the law, which is a transcript of His character, and His transforming efficacy is felt upon the soul until men become changed to His likeness. They are made partakers of the divine nature, and grow more and more like their Saviour, advancing step by step in conformity to the will of God, till they reach perfection. {AG 80.4} M: Why do you think believers continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins Jesus blacklisted?
T: Which ones? Why do you think I think this? Do you think believers continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins Jesus blacklisted? M: And, why do you think Jesus took the time to blacklist them?
T: Is this what He did? I don't think so. What do you think He was doing when He listed specific sins that prevent people from entering the kingdom of God? M: Do you think the sermon on the mount focuses only on positive actions? Or, do you think Jesus also included actions not to do?
T: Are you thinking the Sermon on the Mount is dealing only or primarily with actions? If so, I think you've missed the point. Do you think the sermon on the mount focuses only on positive principles? Or, do you think Jesus also included specific actions not to do?
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110950
03/31/09 10:06 AM
03/31/09 10:06 AM
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Mike,
I see that you are again emphasizing the scriptures in a negative way. Do you think the commandments are just a list of don'ts?
Learn Spanish. Read the commandments in Spanish. Note that the Spanish text was translated from the original Hebrew as was the English text. Then note that the verbs are not in command form.
Spanish has verbs in many more "flavors" than does English. Perhaps Hebrew also had more "inflections" than we have conjugations. In any case, the first time I read the commandments in Spanish, my eyes were opened. I only wish I could read the Hebrew, as it may even be better still.
Here are the verb tenses a Spanish translator could select from:
1) Present tense
2) Past imperfect
3) Past perfect
4) Future tense
5) Conditional tense
6) Past subjunctive
7) Present subjunctive
8) Future subjunctive (now considered archaic)
9) Command form
Surprisingly, the Spanish commandments do NOT use the command form, as an English reader may have come to expect. Instead, the future subjunctive was used.
The future subjunctive does not exist in English. None of the subjunctive forms do, with one small exception or two. Spanish is also losing the future subjunctive tense, which is already considered obsolete...so newer Bibles will use present subjunctive instead. However, the "commandments" in future subjunctive are absolutely beautiful.
Let's use the Sabbath commandment as an example. If God had not "commanded" me to keep the seventh day by refraining from my ordinary duties, I would have felt lazy, unworthy, and guilty if I were to have taken the day "off." Because God said it, it liberates me from guilt.
There are parallels to the other nine here, only...it gets even better. The "thou shalt nots" are actually future tense promises saying "you will not." When God's love reigns in our hearts, we will no longer desire to do those "nots." The commandments are promising us REST from our sinfulness, just as the Sabbath is a REST from our daily toil.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#110973
03/31/09 03:15 PM
03/31/09 03:15 PM
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Mike, I see that you are again emphasizing the scriptures in a negative way. Ouch! That hurts, GC. Did you intend to hurt me? Or, were you trying to inspire me? Please help me understand why you spoke to me this way. I'm not feeling too good right now. GC: Do you think the commandments are just a list of don'ts? No! I believe the law points out what not to do and what to do. Do you agree? For example, the law "points out and prohibits those things that degrade and enslave, and thus to the obedient it affords protection from the power of evil. {Ed 291.2} "The law points out man's duty and shows him his guilt. To Christ he must look for pardon and for power to do what the law enjoins. {DA 608.2} "The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character . . . {DA 762.2} When God says, "Thou shalt not," He in love warns us of the consequence of disobedience, in order to save us from harm and loss. {CG 223.1} Thus you are training them to respect the commandments of God, which plainly declare, "Thou shalt," and "Thou shalt not." {CG 225.1} Every "Thou shalt not," whether in physical or moral law, contains or implies a promise. {CH 325.2} "The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord . . . {ML 231.4} "Thou shalt not commit adultery." This commandment forbids not only acts of impurity, but sensual thoughts and desires, or any practice that tends to excite them. {PP 308.7} "Thou shalt not steal." Both public and private sins are included in this prohibition. {PP 309.1} "The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. {PP 309.5} "There can be no true enjoyment for the transgressor of God's law. The Lord knew this, therefore He restricts man. He directs, commands, and He positively forbids. {TSB 100.2} "The law of God, as presented in the Scriptures, is broad in its requirements. Every principle is holy, just, and good. The law lays men under obligation to God; it reaches to the thoughts and feelings; and it will produce conviction of sin in every one who is sensible of having transgressed its requirements. If the law extended to the outward conduct only, men would not be guilty in their wrong thoughts, desires, and designs. But the law requires that the soul itself be pure and the mind holy, that the thoughts and feelings may be in accordance with the standard of love and righteousness. {1SM 211.1}
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110974
03/31/09 03:22 PM
03/31/09 03:22 PM
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In the following passages Sister White makes it clear that the law of God is the root and tree whereas the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears.
"Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears. {1SM 211.2}
"No man can rightly present the law of God without the gospel, or the gospel without the law. The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears. {COL 128.2}
"In His law, God has given us the pattern. Our character building is to be after "the pattern showed to thee in the mount." The law is the great standard of righteousness. It represents the character of God, and is the test of our loyalty to His government. And it is revealed to us, in all its beauty and excellence, in the life of Christ. {CT 62.1}
"The first step in reconciliation to God is the conviction of sin. "Sin is the transgression of the law." By the law is the knowledge of sin." 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20. In order to see his guilt, the sinner must test his character by God's great standard of righteousness. It is a mirror which shows the perfection of a righteous character and enables him to discern the defects in his own. {GC 467.3}
"The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy. While it promises life to the obedient, it declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. Thus he obtains "remission of sins that are past" and becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is a child of God, having received the spirit of adoption, whereby he cries: "Abba, Father!" {GC 467.4}
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110975
03/31/09 03:28 PM
03/31/09 03:28 PM
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PS - It just occurred to me that 9 out of 10 commandments prohibit specific things. The fifth commandment is the only one that does not specifically say "thou shalt not". Sister White wrote:
"Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." {PP 308.1}
Parents are entitled to a degree of love and respect which is due to no other person. God Himself, who has placed upon them a responsibility for the souls committed to their charge, has ordained that during the earlier years of life, parents shall stand in the place of God to their children. And he who rejects the rightful authority of his parents is rejecting the authority of God. The fifth commandment requires children not only to yield respect, submission, and obedience to their parents, but also to give them love and tenderness, to lighten their cares, to guard their reputation, and to succor and comfort them in old age. It also enjoins respect for ministers and rulers and for all others to whom God has delegated authority. {PP 308.2}
This, says the apostle, "is the first commandment with promise." Ephesians 6:2. To Israel, expecting soon to enter Canaan, it was a pledge to the obedient, of long life in that good land; but it has a wider meaning, including all the Israel of God, and promising eternal life upon the earth when it shall be freed from the curse of sin. {PP 308.3}
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110976
03/31/09 03:32 PM
03/31/09 03:32 PM
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GC, do you think the following passage should be interpreted to mean believers are born again ignorantly practicing some of the sins they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth?
"The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. Practise the virtues of the Saviour's character. Let His wisdom dwell in you richly in all wisdom; "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." . . . The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110981
03/31/09 03:51 PM
03/31/09 03:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
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3No tendrás dioses ajenos delante de mí.
4No te harás imagen, ni ninguna semejanza de cosa que esté arriba en el cielo, ni abajo en la tierra, ni en las aguas debajo de la tierra: I agree with your post, GC, but a little bone to pick. This is future indicative, not future subjunctive. Also the future subjunctive in Spanish is the same as the present subjunctive. Portuguese has a separate form for the future subjunctive, however. By the way, FYI, Portuguese is the most complicated of the Romantic languages in terms of very structure (probably; I don't know Romanian, so I'm guessing about it, and the other Romanian-like languages).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#110982
03/31/09 04:45 PM
03/31/09 04:45 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Mike, I see that you are again emphasizing the scriptures in a negative way.
MM:Ouch! That hurts, GC. Did you intend to hurt me? Or, were you trying to inspire me? Please help me understand why you spoke to me this way. I'm not feeling too good right now. You're getting it from everywhere, poor guy. Time to evaluate if what's being said may be true. At least there's a perception that a number of people have. Regarding "shalt nots," the Sabbath commandment is a "shall." Going back to what GC pointed out, "The Ten Commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises...(FILB 86)". The future tense makes it easy to understand this. The command "thou shalt not have other gods" becomes the promise "you will not have other gods --- I promise!" (God speaking).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111016
03/31/09 11:13 PM
03/31/09 11:13 PM
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Mike, I see that you are again emphasizing the scriptures in a negative way. Ouch! That hurts, GC. Did you intend to hurt me? Or, were you trying to inspire me? Please help me understand why you spoke to me this way. I'm not feeling too good right now. GC: Do you think the commandments are just a list of don'ts? No! I believe the law points out what not to do and what to do. Do you agree? For example, the law "points out and prohibits those things that degrade and enslave, and thus to the obedient it affords protection from the power of evil. {Ed 291.2} "The law points out man's duty and shows him his guilt. To Christ he must look for pardon and for power to do what the law enjoins. {DA 608.2} "The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character . . . {DA 762.2} When God says, "Thou shalt not," He in love warns us of the consequence of disobedience, in order to save us from harm and loss. {CG 223.1} Thus you are training them to respect the commandments of God, which plainly declare, "Thou shalt," and "Thou shalt not." {CG 225.1} Every "Thou shalt not," whether in physical or moral law, contains or implies a promise. {CH 325.2} "The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord . . . {ML 231.4} "Thou shalt not commit adultery." This commandment forbids not only acts of impurity, but sensual thoughts and desires, or any practice that tends to excite them. {PP 308.7} "Thou shalt not steal." Both public and private sins are included in this prohibition. {PP 309.1} "The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. {PP 309.5} "There can be no true enjoyment for the transgressor of God's law. The Lord knew this, therefore He restricts man. He directs, commands, and He positively forbids. {TSB 100.2} "The law of God, as presented in the Scriptures, is broad in its requirements. Every principle is holy, just, and good. The law lays men under obligation to God; it reaches to the thoughts and feelings; and it will produce conviction of sin in every one who is sensible of having transgressed its requirements. If the law extended to the outward conduct only, men would not be guilty in their wrong thoughts, desires, and designs. But the law requires that the soul itself be pure and the mind holy, that the thoughts and feelings may be in accordance with the standard of love and righteousness. {1SM 211.1} Mike, I do not mean to hurt you. I hope that you can view my comment constructively, and positively. I was responding to this: Tom, do you agree that 8 out of 10 commandments begin with "Thou shalt not"? If so, do you agree it pin points what not to do, that it prohibits specific actions? If not, what do you think it means? The "Thou shalt not" pinpointing what "not" to do, and "prohibiting" things are all focused on the negative. However, I view the Ten Commandments in an entirely different light than this, as I explained. So here's, perhaps, another "aha!" moment. I see God's law and love a bit like this: 1) The law is hard. It is unbending. God wrote it on stone to symbolize this. 2) Bones are also hard. They are unbending. God instructed the children of Israel not to offer a sacrificial lamb whose bones had been broken, and none of Jesus' bones were broken, symbolizing that He had kept God's laws. 3) Ellen White refers to the rocks as the "bones of the earth." She says before the flood, they were not visible upon the surface of the earth, but were below the surface, providing support and structure for the earth's crust. (I would find the statement, but am in a hurry right now.) 4) It is clear that God means for His law to support us, and to give us healthy structure. It is best for our happiness. 5) It is also clear that God did not mean for the law to become a focal point. It was to lie below the surface: rocks underground, bones under flesh. 6) God's love was to be the focal point. Our bodies would be useless without bones. The earth's crust would offer no support without rocks. The law is what supports us. Yet the law is not a focal point of beauty. The beauty is in the love. Both work together. They are one in purpose. Just as our body organs all work together, and join in purpose. But we are not attracted by a view of the inner organs and bones. We are attracted by the outward appearance. God's law is part of the inward. God's love, mercy, patience, joy, etc. are more attractive parts on the outward. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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