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Re: Sinning Not #11102
10/24/04 12:15 AM
10/24/04 12:15 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
1. Salvation has been available since the first sin.

2. We are born sinful and sinning.

3. The goodness of God motivates us to repent.

4. If we do not resist the Holy Spirit we will experience the miracle of rebirth.

5. The Holy Spirit empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan.

On 1. I would say salvation has been given to every soul. That's a bit more than "available".

On 2, I don't understand what you mean. How is that new born babies are "sinning"? Are they "sinning" in the womb too?


quote:
But I do not believe everyone is pardoned and counted sinless.
Since the wages of sin is death, wouldn't a person be dead if their sins were counted against them?

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

"If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?" (Ps. 130:3)

"In these words, Christ was speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. 'The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' Isaiah 53:6." (MH 71)

Re: Sinning Not #11103
10/24/04 12:57 AM
10/24/04 12:57 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Tom, if everyone is already saved, then why the great controversy? Why 6,000 years of sin and suffering? What is God waiting for?

Do babies sin in the womb? The Bible says, "All have sinned." That must necessarily include babies in the womb. But they sin unwittingly, and the Bible says, "The times of this ignorance God winked at." Acts 17:30. Yes, babies sin, but they have no idea what they are doing, so they are counted guiltless, by the blood of Jesus. "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Rom 4:8.

Romans
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Galatians
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Re: Sinning Not #11104
10/24/04 06:18 AM
10/24/04 06:18 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Tom, if everyone is already saved, then why the great controversy? Why 6,000 years of sin and suffering? What is God waiting for?

From a legal standpoint God doesn't count people's sins against them during this life. This gives them the opportunity to be justified by faith. If God counted people's sins against them, they would die, for the wages of sin is death.

The Great Controversy is being fought to reveal the truth about God. God is not as the enemy has portraid Him to be. God is kind, gracious, infinitely good. His goodness gives all physical life, and leads all to repentence, if one does not interpose a perverse will and frustrate His grace. To the death of Christ, all owe even this earthly life.

The 6,000 years of sin and misery exist because people have exercized their free will to rebel. God is waiting for a people who will believe the truth.

Re: Sinning Not #11105
10/24/04 02:51 PM
10/24/04 02:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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But, Tom, since God is a loving Saviour, and if He counts everyone legally sinless - then what's He waiting for? What more needs to happen before He destroys sin and sinners in the lake of fire?

Also, how can God count rebellious sinners legally sinless if, indeed, they are guilty of sinning without excuse? What is the legal difference between sinners and saints if sinners are justified the same as saints? By the way, a saint is someone who has accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. A sinner hasn't. And, how do you explain this quote:

FW
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

It sounds to me that our legal standing before God is conditional upon consistent and continual odedience.

Re: Sinning Not #11106
10/25/04 04:48 AM
10/25/04 04:48 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
But, Tom, since God is a loving Saviour, and if He counts everyone legally sinless - then what's He waiting for? What more needs to happen before He destroys sin and sinners in the lake of fire?
God is waiting for a people that will tell the truth about Him, that will present His character as it truly is. This is the work of the 144,000.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." (COL 69)

"Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them." (COL 415, 416)

quote:
Also, how can God count rebellious sinners legally sinless if, indeed, they are guilty of sinning without excuse?
He has to in order for them to have a probation in which they can be justified by faith.

"Our Lord has said, 'Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.' John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ." (DA 660)

"[Christ] took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God." (1SM 343)

quote:

What is the legal difference between sinners and saints if sinners are justified the same as saints? By the way, a saint is someone who has accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. A sinner hasn't. And, how do you explain this quote:

FW
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

It sounds to me that our legal standing before God is conditional upon consistent and continual odedience.

Legal justification is something which happened for the entire human race "[Christ] restored the whole race of men to favor with God." This includes both those who have been justified by faith and those who haven't. It has to, or it wouldn't be "the whole race of men."

In the previous quote I quoted the following:

"In these words, Christ was speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. 'The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' Isaiah 53:6." (MH 71)

Notice that Christ is speaking to every human being. All are weighed down with burdens. We would be crushed if we had to bear these burdens. This is what will happen at the judgment. The wicked will have to bear their own burdens and they will be crushed. The wages of sin is death. But they are not crushed now because Christ is bearing their burdens. He can't wait until we're justified by faith to save us from the consequences of sin because we would be too dead to respond. He has to give us physical life, which is by virture of His death ("To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life") or else we'd be physically dead, and unable to be justified by faith.

What causes people to be lost is not an arbitrary judgment on the part of God, or some legal standing, but the fact that in their hearts they are in actual fact rebels. God cannot take people to heaven who hate Him. He must restore them, save them first. Then He can take them to heaven.

Re: Sinning Not #11107
10/25/04 02:51 PM
10/25/04 02:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
As I see it, Tom, probation and salvation are not one and the same thing. I agree the blood of Jesus secured for the whole human race probation but not salvation or even justification. We must embrace Jesus, crucify our old man, be born again, abide in Jesus - before God can legally justify us, and continue to justify us, through the blood of Jesus. We must be born again and morally sinless, in Christ, before God can count us sinless.

Re: Sinning Not #11108
10/26/04 03:17 AM
10/26/04 03:17 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Rom. 3:23, 24)

All have sinned. All is the subject. New verb "being justified" but same subject. All have sinned and all are justified. (Note, this is not justification by faith)

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom. 5:18)

Same theme. By Adam all were condemened. By Christ all have received "justification of life."

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" (2 Cor. 5:14)

When Christ died, all died in Him. His death restored the entire race of men to favor with God (1SM 343).

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

God does not impute (count) men's sins against them.

"I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you." (Isa. 44:22)

Before we "return" our transgressions have been "swept away."

It's true that we are given probation, but that probation only comes by virture of the death of Christ. If Christ had not died for us, we would not have physical life, and thus no chance to be justified by faith.

God treats everybody as if they had not sinned. If he treated anybody as if they had sinned, they would die, because the wages of sin is death. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. Christ is bearing our guilt before we know anything about him. (I've quoted these references above.)

Christ is the "Savior of the World." John calls Him this 3 times. Several times EGW tells us that "Christ saved the world." He did this be instituting the Plan of Salvation when Adam sinned. This does not mean that all will be saved at last (i.e. go to heaven) because many refuse to go, but it does mean that if Christ had not intervened to become our Savior, the human race would have perished when Adam died.

The Good News is that before we respond to the invitation of Christ, or even know anything about Him, He has already "saved" us (this is not personal salvation, but the salvation EGW is talking about when she says "Christ saved the world.") It is the death of Christ effective for our physical life which gives us the opportunity to respond to His invitation by faith.

Our faith does not change our legal standing, but it changes our heart. The whole problem is with us, not God. God cannot take rebels to heaven. But He can take friends.

Re: Sinning Not #11109
10/26/04 05:02 AM
10/26/04 05:02 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
(Note, this is not justification by faith)

I think we are on the same page. Jesus bought the human race probationary time, which enables us to live long enough to get it right, to accept Him, to live like Him. It is also why we are able to - Go, and sin no more. Not sinning and moral sinlessness are one and the same thing.

Re: Sinning Not #11110
10/27/04 05:09 PM
10/27/04 05:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Again, Sister White makes it very, very plain that believers are born again without their former defects of character, that they are born again morally sinless.

DA 324
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. (DA 324)

COL 38
In every command and in every promise of the word of God is the power, the very life of God, by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized. He who by faith receives the word is receiving the very life and character of God. (COL 38)

COL 57, 58
At the very outset of the Christian life every believer should be taught its foundation principles. He should be taught that he is not merely to be saved by Christ’s sacrifice, but that he is to make the life of Christ his life and the character of Christ his character. (COL 57, 58)

COL 60
The word of God often comes in collision with man’s hereditary and cultivated traits of character and his habits of life. But the good-ground hearer, in receiving the word, accepts all its conditions and requirements. His habits, customs, and practices are brought into submission to God’s word. (COL 60)

COL 333
As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings. (COL 333)

Re: Sinning Not #11111
10/27/04 10:27 PM
10/27/04 10:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There's another EGW quote I forgot to mention. It says that Christ signed the emancipations papers of the human race with His blood.

Christ's death has a benefit for every person, even those who reject Him. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earhly life." He is "the Savior of the world" because "He saved the world." This means that a person is saved be believing the good news of what God has already done for them in Christ.

Justification by faith is God's way of changing rebels into friends. God is not changed, because He doesn't need changing, but we are changed when we believe the truth about God which is revealed in Jesus Christ.

Is there any difference between being morally sinless and being in harmony with God and His law? Is it a defect of character to less than Christ in some way? (e.g. not as generours as Christ, or not as kind as Christ, or not as tactful as Christ)

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