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Re: Sinning Not #11112
10/27/04 11:34 PM
10/27/04 11:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
Is there any difference between being morally sinless and being in harmony with God and His law? Is it a defect of character to less than Christ in some way? (e.g. not as generours as Christ, or not as kind as Christ, or not as tactful as Christ)
I believe being morally sinless and being in harmony with the law and character of God are one and the same thing. Defective traits of character are manifested as sinful thoughts, words or behaviour. Each trait is the result of habitual sinful choices. Being less mature in the fruits of the Spirit is not a defect of character. Jesus will always be more advanced, more mature, in the fruits of the Spirit. We will be maturing in the fruits of the Spirit throughout eternity. We can imitate, but we cannot equal, the righteousness of Christ.

TMK 265
Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. When we fall, all helpless, suffering in consequence of our realization of the sinfulness of sin; when we humble ourselves before God, afflicting our souls by true repentance and contrition; when we offer our fervent prayers to God in the name of Christ; we shall as surely be received by the Father as we sincerely make a complete surrender of our all to God. We should realize in our inmost soul that all our efforts in and of ourselves will be utterly worthless, for it is only in the name and strength of the Conqueror that we shall be overcomers. {TMK 265.2}

2T 549
Ministers especially should know the character and works of Christ, that they may imitate Him; for the character and works of a true Christian are like His. He laid aside His glory, His dominion, His riches, and sought after those who were perishing in sin. He humbled Himself to our necessities, that He might exalt us to heaven. Sacrifice, self-denial, and disinterested benevolence characterized His life. He is our pattern. Have you, Brother A, imitated the Pattern? I answer: No. He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. Love for souls for whom Christ died will lead to a denial of self and a willingness to make any sacrifice in order to be co-workers with Christ in the salvation of souls. {2T 549.1}

Re: Sinning Not #11113
10/27/04 11:44 PM
10/27/04 11:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Here's one of those "emancipation papers" quotations:

MH 89, 90
Jesus knows the circumstances of every soul. The greater the sinner's guilt, the more he needs the Saviour. His heart of divine love and sympathy is drawn out most of all for the one who is the most hopelessly entangled in the snares of the enemy. With His own blood He has signed the emancipation papers of the race. {MH 89.3}

Jesus does not desire those who have been purchased at such a cost to become the sport of the enemy's temptations. He does not desire us to be overcome and perish. He who curbed the lions in their den, and walked with His faithful witnesses amid the fiery flames, is just as ready to work in our behalf to subdue every evil in our nature. Today He is standing at the altar of mercy, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. He turns no weeping, contrite one away. Freely will He pardon all who come to Him for forgiveness and restoration. He does not tell to any all that He might reveal, but He bids every trembling soul take courage. Whosoever will, may take hold of God's strength, and make peace with Him, and He will make peace. {MH 90.1}

The souls that turn to Him for refuge, Jesus lifts above the accusing and the strife of tongues. No man or evil angel can impeach these souls. Christ unites them to His own divine-human nature. They stand besides the great Sin Bearer in the light proceeding from the throne of God. {MH 90.2}

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses "from all sin." 1 John 1:7. {MH 90.3}

Re: Sinning Not #11114
10/28/04 02:00 AM
10/28/04 02:00 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If Christ is more generous than we are, can it be said that we are stingier than Christ? If Christ is more tactful than we are, can it be said that we are more tactless than Christ?

If you view "moral sinlessness" as the same thing as being in harmony with God, or in harmony with God's law, why don't you just say that when someone is justified by faith they are brought into harmony with God or in harmony with God's law? I think you would get a lot more agreement if you said that. The problem with the language you use is people don't understand what you mean.

I could prove this by starting a thread and asking if people believe that when you are justified by faith you are brought into harmony with God and God's law. Many people would agree with this statement, I'm sure.

Since you say "morally sinless" and "being in harmony with God and God's law" are "one in the same thing" why not use language that will be understood?

Re: Sinning Not #11115
10/28/04 04:57 AM
10/28/04 04:57 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
If we compare moral maturity to light we would say Jesus is like sunlight whereas we are like candlelight. The difference between the two is intensity of light - not darkness. Just because Jesus is more advanced than we are it doesn't mean we are sinful in some way.

The reason I use the language I do to describe rebirth is because that is the language the Bible and the SOP use to describe it. Euphemizing the truth with scaled down or sanitized words is a form of hiding the truth under a bushel.

John
5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Re: Sinning Not #11116
10/28/04 05:09 AM
10/28/04 05:09 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
The reason I use the language I do to describe rebirth is because that is the language the Bible and the SOP use to describe it.
No it's not. There's nowhere in the Bible that says we're morally sinless when we're born again. The word "morally" isn't in the Bible. Neither is the word "sinless". Neither is the word "defective". Neither is the word "character."

You're just using language which is less clear because you want to. You'd be better off using language that people understood, if you're goal is to communicate truth rather than stir up arguments which have no useful purpose.

You yourself say that being "morally sinless" is "one and the same" as "being in harmony with God and His law." So once again I ask, why not use the language which everyone will understand?

Re: Sinning Not #11117
10/28/04 04:08 PM
10/28/04 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, technically you're right. But the concepts are there. The reason I use the words moral and morally to describe born again believers is to distinquish it from intellectual and physical perfection. Believers can be morally sinless but not know about the Sabbath, which means they are not intellectually perfect. So, simply saying their life is in harmony with the law of God comes short of the reality. But they are, nonetheless, morally sinless, which is the basis of judgment and salvation.

AG 96
By beholding we become changed, morally assimilated to the One who is perfect in character. By receiving His imputed righteousness, through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, we become like Him. The image of Christ is cherished, and it captivates the whole being. {AG 96.4}

HP 166
"Be ye therefore perfect" (Matt. 5:48) is God's word to us. And in order that we might obey this word, He sent His only-begotten Son to this earth to live in our behalf a perfect life. We have before us His example, and the strength by which He lived this life is at our disposal. In thought, word, and act Jesus was sinless. {HP 166.4}

OHC 264
Jesus has given to childhood and youth a perfect example. Study the Pattern, Christ Jesus, and copy it if you would be like Him--pure, holy, sinless, and undefiled. Study the childhood of Christ. He was the Son of God, yet the Bible record tells us He returned from Jerusalem and was subject unto His parents.... {OHC 264.2}

RC 37
But God, through Christ, has wrought out a way of escape, and He says to everyone, "Be ye therefore perfect." It is His purpose that man shall stand before Him upright and noble, and He will not be defeated. He sent His Son to this world to bear the penalty of sin, and to show man how to live a sinless life. {RC 37.2}

Re: Sinning Not #11118
10/28/04 09:28 PM
10/28/04 09:28 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Why not just say they are in harmony with God? Or say they are in harmony with God's character?

That's what the issue is. God can't take people to heaven who hate Him. God can't take rebels to heaven. He can take anyone who wants to go. All they have to do is not resist Him.

There is not a soul who thinks that we are "intellectually perfect" so your reasons for using the phrase "morally sinless" are groundless. It's just confusing. I've been carrying on a thread with you for days, with over a hundred responses back and forth, and I still don't know what you mean, except that you say it means the same thing as being in harmony with God.

I know what being in harmony with God means. I know that's necessary and sufficient.

Re: Sinning Not #11119
10/29/04 04:49 AM
10/29/04 04:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Perhaps the Bible writers said it best, and maybe we should let them have the last word on this thread:

Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Hebrews
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Re: Sinning Not #11120
10/29/04 09:57 AM
10/29/04 09:57 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Another Bible writer wrote the following:

1 Tim 4: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

/Thomas

Re: Sinning Not #11121
10/30/04 05:12 AM
10/30/04 05:12 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I like that Scripture very much. It brings out that in one sense Christ has saved all men, and in one sense He is the Savior of those who believe. "Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily bread, but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ."

This allows us to bring the Gospel to people, telling them the Good News, not of what God might do for them IF they do something first, but of what God has already done and is doing for them. By virture of His love and grace, and by virture of the gift of His Son, they live, and if they will respond to that grace which already gives them physical life, they will receive eternal life as well.

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