Mike,

I tend to agree with Tom that the choice of words may be the problem here, therefore, as it is done at the beginning of many by-laws that I have read and worked on, it probably would be good to define each of those type of words you use and then go on from there.

Maybe so. But I think it is obvious that most people on MSDAOL believe we are born again with our defective traits of character, and that they gradually die out, little by little, after years and years of sinning and repenting until we cease to sin. Some seem to think that only the 144,000 will achieve sinless perfection.

Others believe a defective trait of character isn't dead until we can no longer be tempted in that particular area. Some seem to feel every species of sin is a different and separate defect. For example, being tempted to be impatient with a slow driver is one defect, and being tempted to be impatient with a slow learner is a different defect.

This idea seems to suggest that impatience, or some other subtitle, must be crucified one defect at a time over the course of a lifetime, and that God is too kind to reveal, all at once, all of our defects under each category (i.e., impatience, pride, jealousy, anger, lust, etc). If each time we are tempted in a new way means we are discovering, for the first time, a new and unknown defective trait of character, then there would be no hope of ever overcoming as Jesus overcame - because there is no end to how many new ways Satan can tempt us.

I do not believe God labels every possible species of impatience separately. Impatience is impatience, no matter how many different ways we are tempted to be impatient, and when God gives us the victory over impatience it includes every old or new way Satan invents to tempt us to be impatient. The idea that we must overcome each species of impatience, one at a time, is one of the reasons why some people twist the victory verses, the perfection promises, to mean believers are born again morally defective.

I suspect that this difference is why some of us disagree on MSDAOL.

Why not just say that when a person is justified by faith, he is brought into harmony with God and His law? As long as he doesn't resist God's grace, God will continue to make him more and more like Jesus.

Because most people assume what you just said means we are born again legally sinless but morally defective, that becoming more and more like Jesus means becoming less and less defective. Which is far from the truth.

You said what I wrote is "one and the same thing" with what you wrote, so what you're saying cannot be true, unless they disagree with what I wrote. I think most will agree with what I wrote, which disproves your statement (unless I'm wrong, and most people don't agree with what I wrote).

What I wrote has the advantage of being understandable.

Yes, the potential exists that some people will understand your way of wording it, but I suspect others will assume your words imply something very different than what you mean. Let's see how the new thread does that you started. I hope it accomplishes what I've been praying for.

Wow! This topic has seen a lot of activity during my absense.

I haven't read all the new comments yet, but I want to start by thanking Tom Ewall, Mrs Sarah Moss, Charlene Van Hook, and Mike Lowe for your comments.

Shortly after that, however, we seem to have strayed off-topic. Remember in my original post, I asked that we not discuss things such as:
* known sins vs unknown sins
* whether it's possible to sin while abiding with Christ
* whether there's a such thing as unknown defective character traits
* etc.

While worthwhile and important topics, these have been discussed abundantly in countless other threads, and can and should be continued there. I don't want this thread to simply be a rehash of other similiar threads.

The topic of this particular thread is very specific. It is about the implications of the idea of living without sinning anymore, or put another way, living a life of obedience to God.

Perhaps some of you have heard the same or similiar objections I mentioned in my original post when discussing with others about walking in obedience to God; I would like to hear your comments. How have you answered those objections in your own discussions? Have you been told that if we ceased to sin, then we'd be sinless and have no need of a Saviour and we'd make Him a liar? If so, how did you respond?

Perhaps you believe that living a life of complete obedience to the Father, if it were possible, would make you sinless and deserving of heaven. Perhaps this is why you believe it impossible to live a life of obedience. If so, I would like to hear from you also. Why do you believe so?

Thank you all for your comments, and for staying on topic.