I recommend Zackrison's In the Loins of Adam: A Historical Study of Original Sin in Adventist Theology.

Some may find it surprising how disconnected Calvin and Luther were from Scripture in expanding Augustine's fifth-century conception.

William

You're proposing cart before horse. Here's what scripture says:

Did the thief on the cross have time to show obedience? Wasn't he saved throught faith only?

Here is what I learn from Pastor Liversidge and what I see from the Bible. I hope this might clarify things.

Salvation is a free gift. It's ours and we did nothing to earn it. Jesus met all the requirements necessary for our salvation. We just need to grab it by faith in Jesus.

However, Salvation is tied together with the established facts through the death of Jesus and the reception of the life of Christ.

The life of Christ is only made available to those who by faith take hold of God love’s gift to them in the offering of His Son. Take hold of that by faith and God promises to abide in Us.

If you are going to let Him in you, that’s a very intimate thing. The presence of the living God in us, challenges our thinking, our feelings, our actions, our attitudes… nothing is left untouched when you let the Living God in you. Count the cost. Because he will not leave you as He found you. He will refine, he will restore, he will replace, he will change, he will sculpted you, he will mold you, He will even permit trials and tribulations in your life so He can bring you to the point where He can fully reveal Himself to you. That’s how he’s so gracious. However, it will be a painful experience. It is far easier to look at the cross from a distance and try to work your own salvation. God is not planning to bring the seed of rebellion in heaven. If it’s in me, he’s not going to take me in heaven. He won’t force me, but God is very intelligent when it comes to salvation. He knows how much it cost him. So you got your ticket, now he wants to give you the fitness so you can enjoy to live in the presence of the living God.

When we come to the cross, we are now privilege to be considered to be dead to sin and it doesn’t matter how you are feeling, and even if you are sinning at the moment. This is a faith step. You are a Child of God that day. As a Child of God whose no longer a slave to sin by faith, you claim the need of the HS, the indwelling mind of Christ, in order to function and live another day.

So Salvation is a dynamic process. It is both an
1. Establish fact throught the death of Jesus Christ. We can claim all the following benefits: forgiveness, justification, reconciliation, redemption, and even to strip our enemy(devil) of all his power.
2. On going process : A daily renewing of the mind through the indwelling of the Spirit. You need to be rebaptized every day, have the indwelling of the Spirit. Now you are in a position to make some outrages claims of the gift of the Spirit on God. Like "Renew in me a new mind", or "create in me a new heart", or etc... That's some promises of the indwelling of the spirit. There's many to claim, they are all ours, all we need to do is tap into it.

The thief on the cross didn't have much time to get into the dynamic of living in Christ. You can trust in God with the ending of your life. Because in Crhist you are perfect at each step of the way. Because your perfection is in Him, not in you.

i dont know if any of us have had the privilege of hearing for ourselves this pastor you speak of, so you have us at a disadvantage as to what he actually said and meant. we only have your understanding of what he said to go on.

the writings of paul were to those who were getting into works for salvation. james was correcting those who were thinking faith was all that was needed. the narrow way is inbetween.

if we believe we obey. noah believed God that there was going to be a flood so he built an ark.

abraham believed God so he was willing to sacrifice his son in obedience.

and etc.



it would probably be better to ask a person to clarify what they mean before assuming such as the above. one might find the other person is not saying what we think they are saying.

Elle,

You appear to be trying to convince us that one need only to believe, through faith, that Jesus lived and died for us, and to accept His salvation. However, there is more.



There is a work for us to do which goes beyond merely believing, accepting, and claiming promises. Here is what Mrs. White says:



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

no, i dont think that is what she believes.

but i do think she believes some, or all, of us are "working" our way to heaven, are more works-based than faith-based....

Tx Teresa, you are indeed closer than Green is. However, I never did any accusation and I definetly wasn't trying to say that either.

I never planned to expand in all these details as if you can look up at post#110948, 110965, 110978, and down the road everyone was asking me to explain myself. I'm definetly not the most eloquent person on this forum. So I tried my best to explain what I have learned and is totally based on scriptures which I've provided lots of support.

I know scriptures can be twisted the way people want to read it. So let it be so. We all have the access of the Holy Spirit, so there's no excuse here. Everyone is free to believe what they want. I'm not here to convert anyone to my views, I'm mostly here to learn and not teach anyone. But this is something that I've experienced recently and it's probably leaking through my post.

I've honored those request (post#110948, 110965, 110978,and so forth). That's why I went through the time and trouble to give it in the best light possible according to my understanding. If you don't want to hear more from me or study with me, then just say you don't believe me and don't ask me further questions.

My pastor just sent me a little track he prepared and reflect how he internalized what he learn from Pastor Liversidge CDs. Actually, it's my pastor that handed me these CDs because it changed him. I'm forever grateful for what he shared, because it deeply touched me too. He's been preaching this gospel in our 3 Churches and many are very moved and blessed.

Anyway here's the track he prepared for our Church to share with others :

many of us can be notorious for misunderstanding what another is saying, especially if it goes against, or seems to go against, what we believe.

i believe i understand generally what you are saying and that we are possibly on a similar page if not the exact one.

it has to do with:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The good works of the believer are wrought through the human agent by Christ himself. {SSW, July 1, 1894 par. 6}
there are many more like it.

as time goes by and you pay attention to the posts you will see that none of us are in complete agreement with any other one here in everything.

if it makes you feel better i didnt get that you were saying all we had to do is "believe" in that one post, as an adventist would understand it.

thank you for clarifying. i personally do not have a problem with anything there.

i assume somewhere it was emphasized that we need to spend time in prayer and bible study everyday for this to happen, as well as studying the life of Christ?

It looks like Green pretty much just quoted a passage from Ellen White, so if Teresa is closer than Green, then Ellen White is also further away than Teresa, which I don't think is a position Teresa with which Teresa would be comfortable.

I think the publican is an easy case to understand. He said, "God, be merciful to me a sinner," and God did! Jesus said he went away justified.