Are you suggesting that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" Jesus spoke about is symbolic of the emotional anguish the wicked will experience when Jesus looks at them and they become consciously aware of every sin they ever committed?

To answer your question, yes, I believe the wicked will suffer unimaginable emotional anguish during the Great White Throne judgment of their sins. But my question to you was - Do you know where it says so?

Ellen wrote:

Our salvation was wrought out by infinite suffering to the Son of God. His divine bosom received the anguish, the agony, the pain that the sinfulness of Adam brought upon the race. The heel of Christ was indeed bruised when His humanity suffered, and grief heavier than that which ever oppressed the beings He had created weighed down His soul as He was engaged in paying the vast debt which man owed to God. {HP 44.4}

It was the anguish of separation from His Father's favor that made Christ's sufferings so acute. As the agony of soul came upon Him, "His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22-44). His terrible anguish, caused by the thought that in this hour of need God had forsaken Him, portrays the anguish that the sinner will feel when, too late, he realizes that God's Spirit is withdrawn from him. {2MCP 464.4}


If you consider the physical pain and suffering and torture Jesus endured at the hands of evil men as "non-essential", then, yes, that's what I mean. I don't see how, though, you can say something as significant as this can be dismissed as having no counterpart in the experience of the wicked at the end of time. In what sense, then, do you think Jesus' experience depicts the experience of the wicked at the end of time?


Apparently I misunderstood what you said. Sorry about that. But just now you didn't say what you did say. So, what do you think? When Ellen wrote, ". . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them", what do you think she meant?

Here's the context:


"Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches." Do you think this source of fire is what will burn the wicked dead to ashes? Here's what it says in Malachi:

Malachi
4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Elsewhere Ellen wrote:

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." The unbelieving world will soon have something to think of besides their dress and appearance; and as their minds are torn from these things by distress and perplexity, they have nothing to turn to. They are not prisoners of hope, and therefore do not turn to the Stronghold. Their hearts will fail them with repining and fear. They have not made God their refuge, and He will not be their consolation. He will laugh at their calamity and mock when their fear cometh. {4T 633.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

My understanding of the historical meaning of the term "gnashing of teeth" is that it involved regret. "Weeping" is self explanatory.



One doesn't need to know where it says so to know this. There are all sorts of examples in Scripture of the impact of the revelation of sin on one's person.



No, this isn't what you were talking about.



You were talking about something else. Explain your meaning here more fully please. I might now disagree with it, depending on where you go with this.

Regarding the last part of your post, if you're asking me something, I don't know what it is.

I have stated repeatedly that I am very happy with that statement and that the only complaint you have mustered on it is one that presumes Ellen White's "soon coming message" was seen by HER as "wrong" from the very start.

A more inconstitent position in your argument could hardly be imagined.

Innexplicably - you keep claiming not to understand that point.

in Christ,

Bob

I didn't ask if you were happy with the statement. I asked if you think the swords are literal. You still haven't answered.



I didn't complain at all. I just asked a question, if you think the swords are literal.



I didn't present an argument. I just asked a question, if you think the swords are literal.



I just asked a question. What I'm not understanding is why you won't answer my question. It's also odd that you go on about "complaints" and "arguments" when I haven't made any.

Do you think the swords are literal? Please answer the question "yes" or "no," and then provide an explanation, if you wish, for you answer.

MM, I noticed a typo, on my part.



This should be "not" rather than "now." So I'm saying, "I might not disagree with it, depending on where you go with this."

It is somewhat entertaining to watch as you pretend not to get my oft repeated affirmations of the text - to be used ASIS without symbols - and I keep pointing to the fact that the ONLY reason you even IMAGINE that a symbol is in use is by your first eisegeting the idea that Ellen White considers her OWN "soon coming" message to be in error as she prints the report of the vision. (Hence my reference to ABL and UAVs not beign seen in her vision).

A more self-conflicted position on your part could hardly be imagined.

But what is more than a little humerous at this point - is why you keep pretending to miss this response.

What is up with that???

in Christ,

bob

You're saying the swords are literal? Is that right? (Yes or No would be nice).

im not real clear on what youre saying, bob but it kind of looks like you are saying the swords are literal.

i think youre saying if Jesus had come around that time that swords would have been in use.

but i find that confusing because i believe swords were just a tad passe by then. guns and knives were more in use, even among the genteel i believe.

Indeed - since the start. Funny the way you pretend not to get this simple part of the answer. Also interesting that you consistently avoid the glaring flaw in your assupmtion to the contrary - which is your argument's need to presume that Ellen White considered her own teaching on the SOON coming of Christ to be in error the entire time she was giving it. (Hence no ABL, and no UAV in her end times dream)

Again - just stating the obvious but you seem to be making a habbit of ignoring it. Not sure how you think this helps your argument.

in Christ,

Bob

Hint. American - Civil War 1861-1865. Yes - they were using swords. The problem was that their firearms were still primarily single-shot so a sword was crucial in close combat.

hmmm wonder what Ellen White was writing about ten years either side of that event... Can you guess?

Though I am sure we all enjoy this entertaining rabbit trail diversion from EW 294 and GC 672-673 -- suppose we get back on topic.

in Christ,

Bob