Amazing the opportunity for those following Jesus by faith alone as Enoch did. But what a price to pay: the complete and permanent death of self. Positively amazing.

Can I actually live up to the inspired standard? Wow, what a work to be accomplished, indeed:


William

[quote=Elle Of course, because it comes from an un-accredited individual that has a hard time to express herself, many on the forum didn't believes me anyway. [/quote]

i knew a very wise woman decades ago who said we judge others by what we ourselves are. another way of saying that is that a thief is always afraid his house will be broken into.

makes some do some serious soul-searching.....but perhaps only some...

i have read similar statements as the bolded recently and find them quite impressive. we can only see so much of God, His holiness, His goodness, before we turn away. something to think about.

yes, its that death to self that is the "killer" isnt it? we can want to die to self, but be completely oblivious to the many moments and seconds that we chose not to die to self.....

regarding your previous post and lgt. isnt it possible there have always been those who were absolutely "sinless"? enoch, elijah, and moses were translated but does that mean they were the only ones that have ever been "sinless"? perhaps they are just the only ones (enoch and elijah) who have been translated....

Quite right, Teresa. And I doubt anyone of these individuals saw themselves as such, but only because they were indubitably focused upon the countenance of God through the merits of Jesus.

By beholding we become changed, as the saying goes. Truly a mindboggling metamorphosis is the restoration of character in biblical salvation!

William

"Judge not lest you be judged," sort of fits into that same idea.

On another thread we're talking about how we view God according to our own characters, which is the same idea you're mentioning. Ps. 18 brings this out. I like the KJV translation of this because it uses the same words for both sides (the attribute one has, and how God is perceived):

I love it when this question comes up. It is usually asked to point out how ludicrous it is to believe such an experience is possible right now. I assume this is the idea behind your question. Here's how I like to answer this question.

The following passage describes my experience while I am abiding in Jesus:

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . .
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And, the following passage describes my experience when I'm not abiding in Jesus:

Romans
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

i dont know if there are any on this board who believe it is ludicrous that we could become "sinless" here and now.

the objection, as i read it, is thinking that we are "sinless", quite dangerous, treacherous ground in my opinion.

You are wrong in your assumption. I don't think it's ludicrous to believe that such an experience is possible right now. What I disagree with is the way you put the two assertions in opposition to each other, as if one was right and the other was wrong. I believe it's possible in this lifetime to reach the point where the Christian's thoughts, words, and deeds are in perfect harmony with God's will. However, until the Christian is mature enough to reach this point, Jesus makes up for his unavoidable sins and it is in this sense that God considers him sinless and safe to save. I must assume you disagree with this.

"Jesus loves His children, even if they err. ... He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect. Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith." --Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.)

Besides, as Teresa pointed out, how can the Christian think that he is "sinless" and, therefore, that he doesn't need Jesus to make up for his sins?

Very eloquent, Elle. Lots of cool concepts, some of which have taken more than one reading to fully process. But well done!

I was wondering how you would separate #1 and #2 (if at all), in terms of the conditions of salvation, assuming we're speaking of both justification and sanctification in the above abstract.

Here is how someone has divided (pre-QOD) conservative Protestantism and conservative Adventism, a list which I might only alter certain emphases but not its core:

Evangelicals have traditionally taught:

A. Sin is a state of being; it is our nature that we are born with and cultivate.

B. Gospel is the “good news” that God “counts” sinners as holy.

C. Gospel is limited to a legal pardon.

D. Gospel promises a covering for sin.

E. Justification is forensic (a legal pardon).

F. Sanctification is a result of already being saved.

Adventists have traditionally taught:

A. Sin is a choice (a thought/action). It is the transgression of the law. It is also an attitude (state of being) that is brought on by choices (cultivated).

B. Gospel is the “good news” that God counts, cleanses, and recreates sinners anew, restoring them back to the image of God.

C. Gospel includes justification, sanctification, and restoration.

D. Gospel promises a removal of sin.

E. Justification is both a legal pardon and a making righteous of the person (but not apart from Christ).

F. Sanctification is a part of being saved.

The above is assuming the conditions of salvation for Evangelicals is belief, faith alone. And the conditions of salvation for Adventists is belief, faith alone (but a faith that works).

There are other pertinent points which could have been added, but this list is already long enough.

Is this a fair treatment of both belief systems? If not, what changes would you make to improve or clarify the list?

William

The post immediately after yours represents the thought you doubt anyone on this forum believes. It says it is not available "here and now". It happens at some future time.

Also, you seem to think claiming the promises of God "here and now" is dangerous and treacherous ground. What do you do when you read 1 John 3:6-9? Do you think it applies to others but not to you?