I suggest everyone listen/read Woody Whidden's presentation at the QOD conference in Andrews.

If I may presume to respond, not to answer for Elle, but to throw in my pennies.

I look at justification as prescribing what it takes to be saved, and sanctification as describing what it means to be saved. IOW, justification is the condition for being saved, while sanctification is the condition of the saved. IOW2, justification is REQUIRED for salvation, while sanctification IS salvation.

This all comes from a simple, but fundamental, paradigm. Q: What do we need to be saved from? A: Selfishness.

You believe it is possible sometime in the future but you don't seem to believe it is possible here and now. You seem to think it is reached after years of sinning and repenting and discovering and overcoming unknown sins. Please post inspired passages to back up this idea. Thank you.


I agree there are believers who experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. In such cases, Jesus does indeed make up for their sins of ignorance.

However, I do not believe this is the type of believers John had in mind when he wrote 1 John 3:6-9. Instead John had in mind believers who are living in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?


Please name the two assertions. I'm not sure what you're talking about.


I inserted the portion left out in the quote above. I like the way it reads. The following quote is very similar and includes insights that compliments the thought above:


It is obvious to me that Ellen White is *not* describing people who are sinning and who need to repent to avoid damnation. The idea that Jesus mingles the merits of His blood with our best and acceptable works and service does not imply our best and acceptable works and service are sinful.


Claiming the promises of God does not negate or nullify the merits of Jesus' blood as described above in the SOP quotes. "All have sinned." Therefore, all require the justifying blood and righteousness of Jesus to cover their sins until the day Jesus blots out their sins.

Rosangela, I'll ask you a personal question. But please feel free to disregard it. Do you think the following promise describes your experience here and now?

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . .
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

you will have to point out exactly where roseangela says it is not available "here and now" because i missed it.

we werent discussing believing the word of God or "claiming promises" so your assumption of what i said does most certainly err.

you may think you have arrived in reading that passage, i do not think i have arrived. i would have to say that i disagree with how you make it work in your mind......

this same letter starts out with these verses:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

What about 1Jn 1:8-10, as teresa already mentioned? When does one experience that?

Regarding #111486, isn't justification salvation?

Ah, yes, Woody's near ebulent analysis especially on LGT. Smiling. Agree, a must read.

Wonder if the ol' codger (said lovingly) would have been as overjoyed had he first noticed the youthful army of Andreasen enlistees not-so-quietly treading across his unprotracted vision?
Sorry, Prof!

William

Nice list, William. Regarding the following:



This seems to be a major bone of contention. That is, the idea that justification is the making righteous of the person who believes. But you're right. This is what Adventism was, straight from 1888.

The point about sin being a state of being is, of course, another way of restating original sin. You did a nice job of listing, I trying to think of the right word, related concepts. Not the word I was looking for. "Isomorphic" might be better (but not the word I'm looking for either).

Indeed.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7).

Read together these are helpful when considering justification as salvation, among others:

“Pardon and justification are one and the same thing” (FW 103).

“God’s forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It [God’s forgiveness] is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin” (MB 114).

“To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind” (RH 08-19-90).

Glad you enjoyed.

William