M: I have repeatedly begged people on this thread to show me in the Pentateuch where Moses explains why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. So far, no one has honored my request.

T: Not true. See #110596 for a recent comment on this.

If you didn't accept the first round, I am uncertain what I can say more that you would accept. To me, there is evidence. To you there is none. Seems we differ.



Obviously, you've already made up your mind. Why keep asking us to be convinced against your will? As you would be of the same opinion still...worse yet, you would be arguing against the Bible in order to prove your earlier assertions.

I think it best not to reinforce such leanings.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

M: If anything, people have simply expressed shock and horror that I don't know where in the Pentateuch Moses explained these things.

T: I expressed shock and horror that you don't know Scripture teaches these things, if that helps.

T: I think it's terrible that you think only Ellen White, of inspired writers, expressed clearly why Jesus died. Also I think you're idea that Jesus, John, Paul and others clearly taught these things, but it wasn't recorded in Scripture, is rather nutty. Since you seemed to be asking for negative comments, I'm hoping my being able to oblige helps out!

Even if others clearly understand it explained, I now concede (if it wasn't clear before) that nowhere in the Bible does Moses clearly explain to Mountain Man why Jesus had to die or that animal sacrifices symbolized His death.

Mike,

I agree that not every detail is recorded in the Bible. For example, the story of Lucifer's fall is very scant in the Bible, though it is there. Mrs. White adds tremendously in that picture.

However, the fact that Jesus had to die and that the animals represented Him is so integral to an understanding of salvation as to make it virtually impossible for it not to have been taught. Do you not view it as necessary for the faith of pre-Messiah generations?

In other words, I can turn the question on its head and ask it the other way, "Was it necessary for Moses to explain why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolized His death?"

My answer to that is, "Yes."

Therefore, that shapes my view of the scriptures, and of the fact that Moses did indeed explain these things.

However, Moses' explanation need not have been explicit. Many of Jesus' most precious truths were "hidden" in parables. He says to all, "he that hath an ear, let him hear." He wants us to work at it, for He knows that by doing so, we will absorb it better, understand it more, and appreciate and remember it.

With that in mind, let me list in bullet form some of the "implicit" references to Jesus' death, as symbolized through the sacrifices, within Moses' writings.

1) Genesis 3:15 -- a descendant of Eve (seed) was promised to overcome the serpent.

2) Genesis 4:1 -- false alarm, but indicates Eve thought this would be the promised "man from the LORD."

3) Genesis 4:25 -- second false alarm, but refers specifically to the "seed" appointed by God.

4) Genesis 12:3 -- "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed," a reference to the lineage of Abram (his seed) bringing the promised One.

5) Genesis 22 -- the story of Abraham sacrificing his only son Isaac. This story is well able to stand on its own in answer to the question of symbolizing Christ's death. However, take special note, with me, of how the story closes--largely passed over by most.

"...thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

This passage hints at a correlation between Abraham's act and the promised Seed. It is significant that Isaac is replaced as the sacrifice by a ram, who's head was caught in thorns. Thus, an animal symbolically replaces a person. "The wise shall understand" (Daniel 10:12).

6) Genesis 28 -- God repeats the promise of the seed to Jacob as he views the dream of the ladder. Both the ladder, and the seed, are references to the Messiah.

7) Exodus 12-13 -- The story of the Passover. God tells the people this:

"And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD's passover..." (Exodus 12:26-27).

"And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him...therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem" (Exodus 13:14-15).

Notice the reference to redemption? That comes from the Divine command the verse before, Exodus 13:13:

"And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem."

This system of providing for redemption for those under the curse is highly significant and symbolic.

8) Exodus 15:13 -- "Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed...." Yet another reference to redemption of people, which was so recently symbolized by the sacrificed lamb.

9) Exodus 23:18 -- "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread, neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning." I find the double use here of "my sacrifice" intriguing.

10) The final chapters of Exodus all outline the plan of the tabernacle, with each of its pieces, including the system of sacrifices. It is symbolic (or typical) of the plan of redemption.

* * *

The above ten points are all taken from just the first two of Moses' books. I will not attempt to cover the others in this same post. However, I will make a note about Leviticus. I find this footnote in my study Bible:



Now, if as you say, Mike, Moses did not teach about the plan of redemption, and what the sacrifices symbolized, we are left with one of a few options:

1) God failed to communicate properly; or
2) Moses failed to do his duty; or
3) Such communication was unnecessary.

I cannot accept any of these options. Therefore, I am left with the option that God did indeed communicate properly to Moses, who communicated that which was necessary for us in a manner consistent with God's will.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

MM:But I also believe Moses clearly explained it in a similar fashion to the COI but that he did not record it as such.

"It is implied in this very brief story that an explanation was given to the children of Israel, in the form of necessary instructions for what to do."

I have said from the beginning that, yes, I believe Moses explained to the COI why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. But no one here but myself seems to agree that he did not record his explanation in the Pentateuch. Even GC agrees that at best it was "implied". Which is a far cry from a clear explanation.

M: If anything, people have simply expressed shock and horror that I don't know where in the Pentateuch Moses explained these things.

T: I expressed shock and horror that you don't know Scripture teaches these things, if that helps.

M:But this thread is limited to the Pentateuch.

And yet you continually refuse to post from the Pentateuch where Moses clearly explains why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. Tom, please put the matter to rest and post the passages you believe clearly address the two points of this thread. Thank you.

Please demonstrate your love and concern for my soul and salvation by posting the passages from the Pentateuch that you believe clearly explain why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death.

Kland, this comment makes me wonder if you love me and care about my soul and salvation.

I think people have stated the passages to you from the Pentateuch, but it isn't clear to you.

So this can easily explain how something could be clear to them which is not clear to you.

When it became clear to me that you didn't believe Jesus, John, or Paul were clear, or any inspired author saving Ellen White, then, of course, it was no surprise that you wouldn't see Moses as being clear.

Others have already posted passages that I believe clearly explain it.

What evidence would you need to find in the Pentateuch to show that Moses clearly explained it?

I do love and care about you.

Again, even GC admitted that it is "implied" and not explicit. That's been my point all along.


Apparently not clear enough to prevent them from killing their Messiah. Also, please bear in mind they had oral tradition to help them interpret the cryptic language employed in the OT. Remember, Moses spelled it out for them in plain terms.


You seem to agree with me that it is implied rather than plainly spelled out.