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Re: Justification
#11149
10/18/04 04:22 AM
10/18/04 04:22 AM
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SDA
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Again, I agree the death of Christ on the Cross was needful and necessary, but why?
1. Why didn't God just pardon Adam and Eve and then simply restore their sinless nature?
2. Why is death the penalty for sin?
3. Why is God going to resurrect sinners and kill them in the lake of fire?
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Re: Justification
#11150
10/19/04 02:12 AM
10/19/04 02:12 AM
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OP
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The first why question (not numbered) is what my post immediately above yours was addressing. On question 1., this is exactly what the Plan of Salvation does. God did pardon Adam and Eve, and by the Plan of Salvation, including Christ's Second Coming and the Resurrection, Adam and Eve will be receive sinless natures, assuming they're in the first resurrection. How else could God have done this? Once Adam and Eve sinned, human nature was fundamentally changed. They had believed Satan's lies, and those lies became entombed in their soul, in their psyche. The resurrection became necessary a necessary stage for the complete restoration of man. For God to make their nature sinless directly, without the resurrection, would have involved bypassing their free will. On 2, the wages of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin because sin causes death. It's not an arbitrary penalty, but the sting of death is sin. Calvary is the oak of the acorn of sin. On 3, that would be worth a thread of its own. It's a great question! In fact, I asked that very question on another SDA forum, which you might be interesting in reading. If you would be interested, you can PM me, and I'll give you the link. If you'd like to start a thread here on it, I'd be happy to respond to it. ====== Removed quoting of post immediately previous to this one. - Daryl ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) [ October 19, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: Justification
#11151
10/18/04 03:13 PM
10/18/04 03:13 PM
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But, Tom, sinful nature isn't the reason why we sin, so why would the plan of salvation focus on eliminating it? I thought the main purpose of redemption is to empower us to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings sinful nature produces.
Matthew
1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 John
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Regarding sin and death, I believe the Bible makes it clear that the punishment for sin is death, not the natural consequence. We die because God will not let us eat the fruit of the tree of life, otherwise, sinners could live forever, the same as angels. God is responsible for death, for eliminating sin and sinners in the lake of fire - not death, not sin, not self, not Satan, not natural law.
Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Regarding death and the resurrection, I agree it needs to be studied further, perhaps on the "Hell Fire and Brimstone" thread?
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Re: Justification
#11152
10/18/04 11:00 PM
10/18/04 11:00 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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quote:
But, Tom, sinful nature isn't the reason why we sin, so why would the plan of salvation focus on eliminating it? I thought the main purpose of redemption is to empower us to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings sinful nature produces.
The purpose of the Plan of Salvation I would say is primarily involved with the vindication of God in the Great Controversy. A part of the Plan of Salvation involves restoring the human race to that which was lost in Eden, which of course includes having a sinless nature.
Similarly the main purpose of redemption, I would say, is the vindication of God's character. This was accomplished for the entire Universe, except for the human race, on the cross, as the chapter "It Is Finished" eloquently explains. (From Scrpture, Col. 1:20, John 12:32, and Eph. 1:10 deal with this theme.) It is our privelege to cooperate with God in His plan to make the truth about Him be known.
To know God is life eternal, and in Christ we have a perfect revelation of Him. As we are restored to His image, and learn more and more what God is like, we have the privelge to share that knowledge with others, and to be restored to the same image, as by beholding we become changed.
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Re: Justification
#11153
10/18/04 11:16 PM
10/18/04 11:16 PM
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DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
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Re: Justification
#11154
10/23/04 03:36 PM
10/23/04 03:36 PM
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1SM 366
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.
1SM 397
Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.
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Re: Justification
#11155
11/03/04 09:34 PM
11/03/04 09:34 PM
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OP
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Bumping this, especially for DenBorg.
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Re: Justification
#11156
11/04/04 04:05 PM
11/04/04 04:05 PM
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OP
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I'm going to break a rule, about quoting a post, and see if I get away with it. I'm quoting your remarks, and honoring the request to consider them here in this thread, as the appropriate place to consider them. I don't see how else to do this, so I hope the administrator will let this slide. quote:
Greetings, Tom. Thank you again for your comments.
While I agree with your statements on Oct 12, I don't think I can agree with this statement. If all of humanity is seen as sinless in His eyes, then all of humanity would be saved. While God does not instantly destroy the wicked, all are not justified nor seen as sinless in the eyes of God.
Throughout the Bible we are told how we can be the sons and daughters of God. Throughout the Bible, the distinction is made between the sons and daughters of God and the sons and daughters of men. (Gen 6:2,4; Deut 32:8; Hosea 1:10; Job 35:8; Ps 11:4;14:2;53:2; Is 51:12; Romans 8:14,19;9:26; Gal 4:6)
Nowhere does the Bible say that all of humanity is justified. Rather the Bible talks about justification by faith. Do all of humanity have faith in Christ? No! (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom 3:24,28;10:10; Gal 2:17; James 2:24)
I agree, God does not immediately wipe out sinners; otherwise you and I would have been destroyed immediately. Actually, we may never have existed because Adam and Eve would have been immediately destroyed. But who would have tempted them? For then God would have immediately destroyed Lucifer in heaven.
The reason the wicked are not immediately destroyed is not because all are justified before God. No, instead God extends grace to both the wicked and the righteous, "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45)
I agree that further discussion on justification should be continued in the other tread you mentioned.
If you agree with the Oct. 12th statement, you should agree with the other, because they are saying the same thing. The key thing to keep in mind is that "justification" does not always mean "justification by faith." You are correct that not all are justified by faith, but the Bible does say that all are justified.
First of all, Rom. 3:23 says that "all" sinned and are justified. Rom. 5:18 says the same thing. As condemnation and judgment came upon "all men", so "justification of life" came upon "all men."
You write that if God saw all as sinless, then all would be saved. This would only be true if the reason that people were lost were because of how God saw them. But the reason people are lost is not due to how God treats them, but with how they actually are. God treats everyone as if they were righteous, as righteous as His own Son, in the sense that He gives them air, and sunshine, and all the blessings needed for life when what should happen is they should be dead. They should be dead because of sin. The wages of sin is death, and the only reason that anyone is not dead is because God graciously gives them life by virture of the death of Christ.
The following quote from the Spirit of Prophesy explains this at length:
quote:
Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. (FW 21)
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Re: Justification
#11157
11/05/04 02:24 AM
11/05/04 02:24 AM
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SDA
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I'm not DenBorg, so hopefully no one will mind me butting in here:
Tom, I see your point, but it's just that I'm not used to someone using the word justified in the context of secular, temporal needs. The most common use refers to justification by faith as it relates to sin and salvation.
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Re: Justification
#11158
11/05/04 03:01 AM
11/05/04 03:01 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The phrase "legal justification" is often used, although it is not in the Bible. Legal justification refers to how God regards us, not to the change that happens within the believer. There are those who believe legal justification is related to, or even the same thing, as justification by faith. For example, Desmond Ford taught that justification was legal justification by faith and denied that justification by faith had anything to do with what happens in the believer.
While "legal justification" is not used in the Bible, it does speak of "justification of life" (Romans 5:18). This justification is not justification by faith because it applies to all men, and clearly not all are justified by faith.
The Spirit of Prophesy expresses the concept in a less theological way. She says, "to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life." "Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily food but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ." "Christ by His wonderful work restored the entire race of men to favor with God." (from memory; maybe not perfect, but close)
The important point is that God has done something for everyone by giving them Christ. Thus the message of justification by faith is not one of "this is what God will do for you if you do such and such first" but "this is what God has done for you." For example, the emancipation proclamation legally freed the slaves, but they had to hear the good news and believe it in order to become experientially free. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that Christ signed the emancipation papers of the human race with His blood.
Jesus Christ is presented in Scripture as "the Savior of the World." When we present the Good News we tell of the one who IS the Savior of the one to whom we are speaking. He is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
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