"In every fiber of our being by nature" does not seem to be speaking of volition to me. What do you think?

Bump for Tom.

I agree with Peter.

If I understand you correctly, you see Peter is dealing with newborn babes who fall in your "Group 2" category (which I'll describe later, in case others are reading this who don't understand what "Group 2" or "Group 1" means). I disagree with this idea. I think there is only a Group 1, and Peter is discussing new believers from that Group.

For any interested bystanders, MM believers there are two groups of born again people. "Group 2" converts are those who are "fully informed" when they are converted of "everything that Jesus commanded" which consists of the 28 fundamental beliefs of the SDA church. "Group 1" converts are those who were converted not knowing some of these doctrines. "Group 1" people can sin ignorantly, but "Group 2" people cannot. Any born again believer who has been educated in the 28 fundamental beliefs cannot sin, even ignorantly, as long as they are abiding in Jesus.

MM believes that all of Scripture, with one exception in Romans 2, is dealing with "Group 2" believers (Clarification, MM. All of Scripture, or all of the NT?)

I'm summarizing this to make sure I'm understood your position correctly, MM, and in case anyone else wants to join in the discussion.

I agree. So Waggoner spoke of sin which did not need volition or consent.

Did Jesus need to die for such sin?

Yes, but not for forensic reasons.

Ok, maybe this is not the right thread for what will follow, but it is at least a loose fit and it is to late to work more to find another one. So here goes.

What is righteousness? That depends on your position. For a judge, righteousness is giving right judgements. For the defendant and the prosecutor, righteousness is when the judgement falls in your favour.

What is sin? Sin is the corruption of creation and especially of humans/humanity which leads us to try and fill our longing for the best with other things or persons than God. Only God can provide what we need and whenever we are seeking that which only God can give in something less than God, it is sin. All humans are sinners with no exception save of Jesus.

God as the creator is the rightful Judge over the whole universe, but He has granted the judgement over earth to Jesus because of Jesus victory on the cross. Therefore, whom of us that will be found righteous is entierly in Jesus judgement. We have reason to believe that He will judge the child righteous because He said that the kingdom is for such as these. He has also called everyone to believe in Him and to follow Him. But it is still so that anyone who has believed in Him and followed Him is not righteous due to what he or she has done but only because Jesus pronouncess him or her righteous in his Judgement.

What think thee?

if sin is the transgression of the law,

and the law is summarized by,
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

with Jesus asking us to go even deeper,
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

with the addition of just a few of the many texts:
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.




so is there any child born with perfect love?

God is agape (perfect love). Only one child was born God.

Yes, Tom, your summary of Group 1 and 2 is correct, as I see it. But if I hear you right, you're saying Peter's description of a newborn babe (in 1 Peter 2:1-3) applies to Group 1. Please name examples of sins Peter's description allows for.

I also hear you saying there is no such thing as Group 2. "I think there is only a Group 1 . . ." Are you saying nowhere in the Bible is Group 2 described?

Teresaq, originally post 111883 was addressed to you. What are your thoughts?