I suspect you are right in thinking this particular passage contains elements that are symbolic.

Right, the fire that comes down from God out of heaven intervenes and prevents evil men and angels from killing each other. They will suffer physically according to their sinfulness. Note - the emotional agony they suffer happens before they turn in rage upon one another, before God rains down fire upon the earth. By the time He rains down fire they have finished suffering emotionally.


Your answer surprises me. It seems to imply you do not see a correlation between 70 AD and the end of time.

PS - The second coming is not "the end of time".

Tom, you seem to implying that this passage describes God using literal fire to burn up the wicked after they are dead. Do you think the righteous will tread upon the ashes of the wicked? Or, do you think will recreate the earth and that they will not walk on the ashes on the wicked?

Ellen White seems to have viewed Malachi 4 differently than you do. She observed:

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Do you think God inflicts the emotional pain upon the wicked arbitrarily like you think He does with the physical pain? If not, then the emotional pain must be a natural consequence of their sin, right? Given this is the case, why do you think God would require an arbitrary punishment on top of the non-arbitrary punishment the wicked already suffered? Doesn't that seem rather illogical?



I do see a correlation. Ellen White spells it out. The destruction of the wicked is like the destruction of Jerusalem in that God withdraws which results in the wickeds' reaping what they have sown. So there is a correlation; it's just that you're not focusing on the really essential elements.



I don't think so. She wrote:



This is discussing Malachi 4, and is what I believe.

Actually, where does Ellen describe them experiencing emotional agony? Here's what I've found:

"As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. . . Above the throne is revealed the cross; and like a panoramic view appear the scenes of Adam's temptation and fall, and the successive steps in the great plan of redemption. . . They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . ."

This doesn't describe what you're saying about it.


I take then you agree with me that certain elements do not apply, that is, they do not carry over.


She wrote, ". . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." But earlier you said this was referring to fire that burns them to ashes after they are dead.

I am going with the obvious in that case. As in fact many independant evaluations of Bible translations have shown an obvious gradient from "pure paraphrase" to "strict translation" where at one end you have the story telling of the Living bible and on the other and you have things like the NASB and YLT.

No mystery there.



But as if that was not enough - we also have this from Christ in Matt 22 that Angels are not even designed - made in ontological form - to participate in procreation or "family" relationships between themselves - much less across species chimera story telling.

Basically - I believe in keeping the simple things simple - instead of inserting a vague gap at every turn. Hopefully we can agree that this is the best model.

in Christ,

Bob

And taking that last post to the next step.

That means that the only reason to ADD to the text below "this is not clear! This is not Clear! We must interpret our way out of it" kinds of statements -- is that some are not happy about the text as it is.

=====================================================

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}


Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but
295
also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"
{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.
==============================

in Christ,

Bob

Do you realize what you just said?

You're saying you don't think emotional pain is involved in becoming conscious of all your sins, seeing where God was working in your life, where you rejected Him, and so forth? What about where Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?



If you mean non-essential things, like what you've been pointing out, yes, I agree.



No, I didn't say that. It's very unpleasant when you do this. You ask me a question, and I answer that question, and then you cast the answer to the question you asked as if it were answering some other question you didn't ask.

Please go back and check what you actually asked me.

Also, you shouldn't have cast my response here as something I said, but as what it actually was, which was an answer to a question *you* asked. So you should say, "But earlier, when I asked blah, blah, blah, you answered, 'yada yada yada,'" and that would be accurate.

Bob, do you think the swords in the EW quote I presented are literal? Are you happy to take that text as it reads?