I see a problem in some of the posts above. Tom quoted Romans 6:23 as saying the wages of sin is death. But he followed it immediately with the statement that "death is the penalty for sin." How can he equate "wages" with "penalty?" When he gets his wages at the end of the week, does he feel he is being punished? Wages are something earned, not some evil we are punished for. He even says so in the rest of the sentence started above when he says "because sin causes death." Death is caused by sin, it's an effect of sin, not a punishment for it.

The problem seems to be in the definition of "sin." There are two distinct categories of sin in scripture (see I John 5:16, 17): the things we do and the type of person which we are. There are also two distinct types of law: legislated laws and natural or scientific laws. Legislated laws are temporary, changeable, and usually man made (though God made a few such laws back in Exodus - Deuteronomy). These laws try to regulate the things we do and as Mike suggests in his post, they are arbitrary. And they carry punishments. Natural law, on the other hand, is eternal, unvariable, and not made by anyone. They describe the way the universe works. These laws are discovered, not legislated. Furthermore, there are no punishments involved. They cannot be "kept" or "broken." One either cooperates with them or suffers the consequences or effects. Obviously, the two kinds of sin derive from the two types of law. The sins we do (usually called crimes) reflect the temporary, arbitrary laws inflicted on us by a legislature, judge, parent, society, etc. Sometimes this kind of law requires the death sentence, but more often the punishment is something more mundane such as a fine, jail sentence, whipping, withholding of privileges, etc. The sins for which the wages is death are defined in I John 3:4. But here we hit a second misunderstanding. The original text in the Greek says "sin is lawlessness," an attitude reflecting the second type of law and sin outlined above. But the KJV translators rendered the text "sin is the transgression of the law," an action reflecting the first type of law and sin outlined above. Since the KJV has been the standard by which most doctrines have been derived, this mis-translation has probably caused more misunderstanding (as noted from previous posts) than any other verse in scripture. But by going back to the original of John 3:4 and making a more careful examination of Romans 6:23 should clear up the confusion on this point.

Bob Lee

Bob Lee, I like the way you explained the difference between man-made laws and natural laws and the corresponding results when we violate either one. But it wasn't clear to me where the law of God fits in, and how it relates to death and punishment.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

From this passage it seems pretty plain to me that we die because God barred access to the fruit of the tree of life. Was this action, on God's part, a form of punishment? Maybe. But in another sense it appears to be a blessing in disguise. Living 70-80 years in a world full of sin is difficult enough, I can't imagine living forever in such a state. So, it seems that our first death is merely a resting state until the resurrection.

Before our first parents sinned, while they were still innocent and sinless, God commanded them not to eat the forbidden fruit, and this command was couched with a warning, an implied promise and punishment. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." In other words, obey and live, disobey and die, which is also reminiscent of the blessings and cursings God issued and outlined in Deuteronomy 28.

Did God's prohibition in the Garden of Eden imply punishment or natural consequences? Well, since death is the natural consequence of not eating the fruit of life, and since it was God who denied them access to the fruit, it would seem that both apply, both natural consequences and punishment. We die because God will not let us eat the fruit, which if eaten, prevents us from dying. Thus God, and not natural law, is accountable for our first death. That is, we wouldn't die, even in a sinful state, if we were allowed to eat the fruit of life, unless, of course, someone lopped off our head.

What about the second death? Is it the result of punishment or natural consequences? Well, I suppose it depends on what we think about the resurrection, whether it is natural or supernatural. Since it is obviously a supernatural event, it stands to reason that God is accountable for our final demise, whether eternal life or eternal death. In the case of those who are resurrected to perish in the lake of fire, the second death, it would appear that more than natural consequences are at work.

Yes, fire can burn someone to death if no one intervenes to rescue them. So, if we can determine the origin of the lake of fire, and how people end up in it, and why no one rescues them, then we should be able to learn the truth regarding the nature of their death, whether it was punishment or natural consequences. Again, the answer should be obvious. Both are at work, both punishment and natural consequences. Thus God, and not natural consequences, is accountable for the final demise of the unsaved.

If all these observations are true, then we are forced to ask the question – Are the wages of sin death? Is sin really the sting of death? If so, then what can we learn about the nature of sin and death? Is death merely the natural consequence of sin? Or, is there more to it? And how does any of this relate to the doctrine of justification of life and justification of salvation?

Mike,

I see much more to the story than either of us have related. To start with, the "big picture" involves a great controversy or what one well known writer labeled her book on the subject, "The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan." But notice, the controversy is not between God and humans, or between Satan and humans. Humans are not part of the controversy. We are, to quote contemporary news releases, collateral damage. We are the civilians, the bystanders, and to a great extent the prize for which the battle is being fought.

From this perspective, some of the words used to describe the battles are misleading. You used the word "command" in reference to the fruit of a tree in the garden (you said: "God commanded them not to eat the forbidden fruit"). Perhaps, however, God put that tree in the garden to feed the birds or squirrels much as we might plant a holly tree for the same purpose. But holly berries are toxic to humans and if you notice, God told Adam that the "forbidden fruit" was also toxic ("for when you eat of it you will surely die"). It seems obvious to me that when Adam ignored that information, any illness or death would be an effect about which God warned Adam, not a punishment of any kind.

As for the lock-out from the garden, I see that as "damage control" more than either an effect or a punishment. Like putting a fence around a well.

As for the "second death," that is a separate subject. But briefly, I see that as a man-made event. After the millinium and after the sheep and goats are seperated, Mrs. White states and the Bible implies that evil forces will surround the City in an attempt to destroy it. Have you ever wondered how a bunch of unarmed people could possibly expect to destroy a city that can "come down from heaven?" Maybe they weren't unarmed. We are not told how long this event occurs after the millinium ends, but it could be many years. Plenty of time for those evil forces to dig up or recreate the weapons we have today (atom and hydrogen bombs, toxic chemical bombs, and biological weapons) or for antediluvian people to recreate the weapons they had before the flood. They could also rebuild the missiles or aircraft it would take to deliver those weapons. When those weapons were deployed, where do you suppose they would go when they bounced off the walls or roof of the city? It wouldn't take many of them to create the "lake of fire" we refer to as hell. And the humans created it themselves--God had nothing to do with it except, maybe, to put up some kind of force field.

Bob Lee

Bob Lee, you've quite an imagination. Can you support these ideas from the Bible or the SOP? And, can you show it relates to the topic of this thread?

Boblee, I think I'm in agreement with what you're writing. I'll take a back seat and let you explain your thinking some more, but so far I'm in total harmony, as far as I can tell, with what you're saying.

When I wrote that death was the punishment for sin, I did not mean as an arbitrary event, but as a consequence. My use of the phrase "the wages of sin is death" was simliar. A certain version translates this verse thus: "Sin pays its wages: death."

There is a cause and effect.

Man's disobedience resulted and still results in God's punishments.

When God pronounces judgment, He executes that judgment Himself in the same way He brought about the world-wide flood in which only Noah and his family were saved, in which Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by fire and brimestone, in which the all the forstborn of Egypt were slain, etc.

In like manner, God will rain down fire from heaven which will devour all the wicked, the fallen angels and humans alike. This isn't any ordinary fire, nuclear or otherwise, but a fire that even consumes the wicked angels and wicked men and women.

God, however, doesn't want anybody to perish, therefore, He made a way of escape through Jesus Christ. That is what this topic is really all about.

No, Tom, your problem is with the Bible, which says the fire comes down from God, and your problem is with the SOP, which says the same thing. It's no ordinary fire, for it consumes people according to their sinfulness. Only God can kindle such a selective fire.

Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

GC 672, 673
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

It is an act of God, a judgment act of God.

The lake of fire isn't formed as a result of nuclear weapons launched by the lost and then bouncing off the walls of the New Jerusalem.

One thing though is that it is called God's strange act as He came to seek and to save the lost, not to destroy them.

They, the lost, in effect, have really destroyed themselves by their choices.

They rejected His love, His mercy, and His grace.

The Bible says many things, including that God killed Saul even though Saul commited suicide. It says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It says the God created evil. It says that God moved David to number Israel. It says that God sent lying spirits to deceive Ahab.

God has given us minds and powers of reason to understand inspiration. The Bible says that Lazarus and the rich man were separated by a wide gulf, with Lazarus being in heaven and the rich man in hell. It also says that Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradice" and yet, in spite of these declarations, we are able to come to a true understanding as to what inspiration teaches regarding the State of the Dead.

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the wicked are destroyed because they separate themselves from God, who is the source of life, and the glory of God destroys them. She says it is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God.

In the Great Controversy she writes:

quote:

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But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)

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A little earlier in the same chapter we read

quote:

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The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

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We are considering important questions here. What is the true nature of sin? Does it really cause death? Does God warn us against sin because it will destroy us, or is sin in reality benign, and it is only because of God that the wicked will die? Is God telling us "Do what I say, or I'll destroy you?" Or does he tell us, "Sin will destroy you. Allow Me to save you from it."

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that compelling force is not to be found in God's government. This is how Satan does things. God's government is moral, and its governing principles are love and truth.

No Mike, I don't have a problem with the Bible. John wrote down what he saw. So did Ellen White. It's up to us to figure out what these things mean.