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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Daryl] #111593
04/11/09 05:10 AM
04/11/09 05:10 AM
teresaq  Offline
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well im certainly no expert but it has been sticking in my mind for months now.

is it something we would understand better if we craved the society of the Father as Jesus did? how often do we think about Jesus spending hours, even whole nights in prayer? how inclined are we to do that?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: teresaq] #111612
04/11/09 03:09 PM
04/11/09 03:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

we talk a lot about keeping the commandments of God and having the spirit of prophecy, but i have yet to hear much about the "faith of Jesus" except from the writings of ellen white.

and yet, according to this, the people of God have both the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I regularly write about believers having the faith of Jesus. But most people on this forum argue against it. Having the faith of Jesus means having the kind of faith that enables us to work the works of Jesus - to be like Jesus!

John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The testimony of those who have the faith of Jesus is - "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." Ellen White observed:

Many seem to think that it is impossible not to fall under temptation, that they have no power to overcome, and they sin against God with their lips, talking discouragement and doubt, instead of faith and courage. Christ was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. He said, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." What does this mean? It means that the prince of evil could find no vantage ground in Christ for his temptation; and so it may be with us. {3SM 192.2}

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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #111639
04/11/09 10:15 PM
04/11/09 10:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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The meaning Ellen White gives to the phrase "faith of Jesus" is not a faith like that of Jesus, but faith in Jesus.

The third angel's message is the proclamation of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. The commandments of God have been proclaimed, but the faith of Jesus Christ has not been proclaimed by Seventh-day Adventists as of equal importance, the law and the gospel going hand in hand. I cannot find language to express this subject in its fullness. "The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.2, 3}

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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Rosangela] #111640
04/11/09 10:48 PM
04/11/09 10:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Rosangela, do you think the expression "the faith of Jesus" is a reference to His life and teachings and doctrines? If so, what happens to believers when they embrace "the faith of Jesus", when they imitate His sinless example and live in harmony with His teachings and doctrines?

"The Lord has been pleased to give His people the third angel's message as a testing message to bear to the world. John beholds a people distinct and separate from the world, who refuse to worship the beast or his image, who bear God's sign, keeping holy His Sabbath--the seventh-day to be kept holy as a memorial of the living God, the Creator of heaven and earth. Of them the apostle writes, "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."-- Letter 98, 1900. {Ev 233.3}

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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #111657
04/12/09 02:54 AM
04/12/09 02:54 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
The meaning Ellen White gives to the phrase "faith of Jesus" is not a faith like that of Jesus, but faith in Jesus.


As Paul uses the phrase, it means "the faith of Jesus," which is to say, Jesus' faith:

Quote:
"The Faith of Christ."

Much is lost, in reading the Scriptures, by not noting exactly what they say. Here we have literally, "the faith of Christ," just as in Rev.14:12 we have "the faith of Jesus." He is the Author and Finisher of faith. Heb.12:2. God has "dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3), in giving Christ to every man. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom.10:17), and Christ is the Word. All things are of God. It is He who gives repentance and forgiveness of sins.

There is, therefore, no opportunity for any one to plead that his faith is weak. He may not have accepted and made use of the gift, but there is no such thing as "weak faith." A man may be "weak in faith," that is, may be afraid to depend on faith, but faith itself is as strong as the Word of God. There is no faith but the faith of Christ; everything else professing to be faith is a spurious article. Christ alone is righteous; He has overcome the world, and He alone has power to do it; in Him dwelleth all the fullness of God, because the law--God Himself--was in His heart; He alone has kept and can keep the law to perfection; therefore, only by His faith,--living faith, that is, His life in us,--can we be made righteous.

But this is sufficient. He is a "tried Stone." The faith which He gives to us is His own tried and approved faith, and it will not fail us in any contest. We are not exhorted to try to do as well as He did, or to try to exercise as much faith as He had, but simply to take His faith, and let it work by love, and purify the heart. It will do it; take it! (The Glad Tidings)


Richard Hayes wrote a book entitled "The Faith of Jesus" which presents a strong case for translating the subjective in the Greek as a subjective genitive, as Waggoner is arguing. Luke Timothy Johnson also argues for this translation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Tom] #111671
04/12/09 05:10 PM
04/12/09 05:10 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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When Ellen White speaks of the message presented by Waggoner, she refers to the message of justification by faith, which is the third angel's message. So the burden of the message is faith in Christ.

Elder E. J. Waggoner had the privilege granted him of speaking plainly and presenting his views upon justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ in relation to the law. This was no new light, but it was old light placed where it should be in the third angel's message. . . . What is the burden of that message? John sees a people. He says, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 14:12). This people John beholds just before he sees the Son of man "having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle" (verse 14). The faith of Jesus has been overlooked and treated in an indifferent, careless manner. It has not occupied the prominent position in which it was revealed to John. Faith in Christ as the sinner's only hope has been largely left out, not only of the discourses given but of the religious experience of very many who claim to believe the third angel's message. {3SM 168.1, 2}

Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity." {RH, April 1, 1890 par. 8}


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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Rosangela] #111675
04/12/09 11:23 PM
04/12/09 11:23 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
It's true she wrote this, but there are over 2,000 pages she wrote on the subject, including over 1,000 endorsements of the message. The quotes you present are fine, but there are specific things which Jones and Waggoner presented. The above quotes are rather vague, being applicable to pretty much any message at all.

For example, a few specific things she endorsed include the two covenants, the human nature of Christ, and the law in Galatians.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Rosangela] #111679
04/13/09 12:21 AM
04/13/09 12:21 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
When Ellen White speaks of the message presented by Waggoner, she refers to the message of justification by faith, which is the third angel's message. So the burden of the message is faith in Christ.

Elder E. J. Waggoner had the privilege granted him of speaking plainly and presenting his views upon justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ in relation to the law. This was no new light, but it was old light placed where it should be in the third angel's message. . . . What is the burden of that message? John sees a people. He says, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 14:12). This people John beholds just before he sees the Son of man "having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle" (verse 14). The faith of Jesus has been overlooked and treated in an indifferent, careless manner. It has not occupied the prominent position in which it was revealed to John. Faith in Christ as the sinner's only hope has been largely left out, not only of the discourses given but of the religious experience of very many who claim to believe the third angel's message. {3SM 168.1, 2}

Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity." {RH, April 1, 1890 par. 8}


i dont know what picture you have when you read that, but it doesnt seem so "simplistic". from those and like statements i get that we are to have the same faith Jesus exercised. we are to have the same faith in Jesus that He exercised towards the Father.

that could be stated much better.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: teresaq] #111691
04/13/09 12:45 PM
04/13/09 12:45 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I see this a little differently. Ellen White presents the faith spoken of in Rev. 14:12 as essentially faith for salvation, something which doesn't apply to Christ. She points out that in the third angel's message we have the law (the commandments of God) and the gospel (the faith of Jesus).
Of course faith is also necessary to keep the commandments of God, and this could find a parallel in Christ's experience but, as I said, I see Ellen White's main emphasis here as being faith in Christ as the sinners' only hope of salvation (justification).

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Re: Lesson #2 - Faith [Re: Rosangela] #111694
04/13/09 01:43 PM
04/13/09 01:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Since "faith in Jesus" results in living in harmony with the will of God like Jesus did, I don't see how we can neatly separate faith and works. So, "faith in Jesus" and "faith like Jesus exercised" seems inseparable. Faith always results in a godly life.

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