Regarding the punishment of the wicked, let's try another tack. What is it that causes the wicked to suffer and die?



According to the above, death is "the inevitable result of sin." The answer to the question, "what is it that causes the wicked to suffer and die" is "sin." Not "God," but "sin."

Note the following:



The suffering of the wicked is due to something they have done to themselves; they have "placed themselves so out of harmony with God" that God's presence becomes to them "a consuming fire."

As we move to the second paragraph, we see that had God "left" Satan to "reap" the "full result of his sin," he would have died, but God did not allow this to happen because had He done so, this would have been misunderstood by onlooking angels. They would not have understood that Satan's death was "the inevitable result of sin."

Now what could have they have misunderstood it as? Only one thing presents itself as a possible answer: as God's killing him. And so the affirmation in the beginning of the first paragraph that the death of the wicked is NOT an arbitrary act of power on the part of God makes perfect sense. Rather than being something God does to the wicked for some reason of individual discretion (i.e. "arbitrary"; or we could say rather than being a "manufactured" act on the part of God), the wicked die as a result of their own actions. Ellen White makes this point almost a dozen times in the space of two mere paragraphs.

Of note also is the fact that the explanation of the death of the wicked takes place in the chapter dealing with what Christ accomplished by His death. One of the things accomplished was a revelation of death. Now that death has been clearly seen (i.e., the second death), God can allow Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin with this "strange act" being misinterpreted as something God is doing to them.

We cannot understand the death of the wicked without an understanding of the death of Christ.

I'm not sure what you're asking. For example, Mark speaks of how someone's cloak was stripped from him and he ran away naked. Peter cut off a soldier's ear. Jesus was kissed by Judas, whom He called "friend." What sort of things are you talking about?

Tom, I'm talking about Jesus' experience. Please name the things that happened to Him between Gethsemane and Golgotha and then explain why you think it will or will not happen to the wicked at the end of time.

If you're talking about external things, like being betrayed, being taken to appear before Pilate and Herod, etc., these things wouldn't apply to the wicked. If you're talking about his mental suffering, there would be some things in common, due to the impact of sin upon the mind. For Jesus Christ it would have been worse because He took the sin of the world, as well as being more sensitive, because of His sinlessness.

Here is something that no one will find confusing -- even those who want to ignore it -- will find it very easy to understand.



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Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}


Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but
295
also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"
{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.
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in Christ,

Bob

I am interested to find that this "don't believe the text as written" style argument also finds "exegesis" to be something objectionable.

You can't get a more clear line between truth and error than that.

in Christ,

Bob

I have not read the thread so I might be in the dark here, but I would like to learn more about "this "don't believe the text as written" style argument also finds "exegesis" to be something objectionable." Would someone bring some ligth on this for me?

Nobody argued this.



This is assuming a false premise (the first paragraph), as well as adding a gratuitous assumption ("We must interpret our way out of it.")

Let's straighten out the point about the swords. In the vision cited, the swords should not be taken literally because swords were not an item an ordinary person would have. The civil war thing was a red herring you brought up. I made no mention of it. I simply refuted your argument that was based upon it. If the vision had been meant to reflect a literal weapon a person would use, guns would have been involved, not swords. Just as today, people would have been much more likely to have guns than swords.



This is the paragraph in EW 294 of which I've been questioning your literal interpretation. How can this be literal? "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon."

Isn't is obvious that "worm of life" is not literal? You don't think that our life is literally a worm, do you? If the expression "their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon" were literal, what would it mean? Does it mean "As long as there is any particle of matter in existence of a wicked person, the person is not dead, because the fire is still preying upon it?" I don't see what else it could mean, if it's literal. If this is what it means, this doesn't make any sense. A particle of matter cannot constitute the life of a person.

Not clear to me either. Almost sounds like he's objecting to himself. However, I believe Green Cochoa's first part of post #111811 brings light to this case.

Regarding does God punish, I've come across a discussion with someone which shows a problem with whether one believes God punishes or if He just allows consequences.

They (their church) believes that Certain select people go to heaven. Others stay on earth. Then there's the resurrection.

There are those who are righteous who are raised. These have a choice to still accept God or reject Him.

There are those who are unrighteous who are raised. These also have two choices, still reject God or accept Him.

Then there are those who in their heart have definitely rejected Him and will not be resurrected.

When I questioned him about these last group, he said well God wouldn't raise someone to just kill them, would He? When I mentioned this referred to our differences in the character of God, it didn't change his opinion.

So, instead of "taking the Bible as it reads", these people have construed, contorted, and otherwise added to the resurrection which I always thought was simple and straight forward.

Why do they have this view of the resurrection? It's because they believe God is going to get the bad people, He's going to kill them, He's going to torture or otherwise punish them. But yet, this conflicts with their view that God is love. So, they add this second chance to their beliefs so that God isn't just raising dead people to kill them dead again.