God created life; he too created death, nothing under the sun which is not his creation, even life and death.

How can Tom Ewall believe that death is not God creation?? Even good and evil is God creation.

Men has just made a choice, to live the evil way or to live the good way.

Once they were created without this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil, just simply living and doing things because they were created in perfection, holiness and the love of God ruled their heart. But due to their free will choice, they choose to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in order to have wisdom as God, knowing good and evil. And once they knew, the choice to live the good way or the evil way is theirs, but God wants all men to live the good way in order they might live.

Killing men is against God’s love, but he must do it in order to abolish sin and sinners forever from his universe, otherwise sin and sinners would live forever side by side with holiness and righteousness. The wages of sin is death and the executioner of death is God.

First death we inherit from Adam and Eve who were sentenced to death due to their sin, they deserve to die for it is their sins, but not us. But the second death is the wages of sin, those who live in sin and died in sin would die the second death as the wage of his own sin in spite Christ had saved him trough his redemption work.

In Hs love

James S

Hi James,
Daniel has a very valid point as well as a concern. God is love, so he did not create evil.
GOd Bless,
Will

God doesn't kill sinners. They kill themselves by separating themselves from God. "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." (DA 764)

I have to disagree with youthere Tom. God will infact kill sinners.
The flood, the israelites who made a golden calf, and also the army of 185 thousand soldiers.
Jesus said those who are not with me are against me, and that will result in the opposing force losing.
God Bless,
Will

The punishment and killing aspect seems to be taking over this topic, therefore, those of you who want to continue to discuss the punishment aspect, then I suggest a new topic be started.

I apologize for diverting this thread to another subject. It is a good discussion, but I mentioned it only as a side line which, as Daryl suggested, should have taken off on another thread.

Meanwhile:

In relation to my previous post, I was asked, "where the law of God fits in, and how it relates to death and punishment" and "can you show how it [what I suggested about penalty] relates to the topic of this thread?"

The topic of this thread is justification which is usually thought of as one-third the plan God provided for our salvation. The plan is usually presented in a ditty like this:

Justification: Saved from the penalty of sin,
Sanctification: Saved from the power of sin, and
Glorification: Saved from the presence of sin.

The penalty of sin is seen as a one-time act (the cross) at which God paid the penalty for and forgave all sin. When we accept that forgiveness, we are henceforth saved. God then gives us the power to overcome all sin in our lives. This will probably take a lifetime and then some to accomplish. Finally, at death or at Jesus' second coming, He removes us from the very presence of sin.

The problem that bothers me is that word "penalty." There are penalties connected with laws that come from legislatures, judges, parents, and other authority figures, but except in extreme situations, that penalty is not death. But I believe God's laws are natural laws such as those of gravity, momentum, inertia, and electromagnetism. They are not the fickle, temporary, changeable, laws that come from legislatures. In His proclamation on Sinai, I believe God did us a favor by revealing a few of the natural laws that would have taken a long time for us to discover. As we learn to cooperate with the Sinai laws as we learn to cooperate with gravitational fields (don't jump from that high up), inertial laws (don't drive around a corner so fast), electric fields (don't stick your finger in the light socket), etc., our lives will be much safer. In fact, with God's guidance we can learn to live forever. On the other hand, ignoring natural principles can be dangerous, even deadly (that's where ALL death comes from). Not because of anything God does, but because we've been careless.

RL

I used the word "penalty" in the sense of natural consequence, as I explained. I used the word because it's often used. I agree that it can give the wrong idea. I certainly don't think that God arbitrarly punishes people, which I think I've made clear.

In the very first post I discussed both the "penalty" and "power" aspects of salvation. I attempted to do so without using theological terminology. I would be interested in your comments of it.

Tom,

When you stated "I used the word "penalty" in the sense of natural consequence," I believe you put your finger on the main problem that causes misunderstanding in our discussions. Almost every "buzz word" we use in our theology has at least two and sometimes many different usages. When I use a word in one sense but you are thinking of a different meaning of that word, it's difficult for us to understand each other. One time when I was discussing the gospel, for instance, a friend of mine asked "which gospel?" He went on to say "the gospel according to Desmond Ford is ..." and proceeded to give a short synopsis of Ford's concepts. He continued by naming at least a dozen prominent Adventist theologians and outlined each of their concepts of the gospel. And all were different. As I say, most of our theological buzz words have similar problems. So it's not surprising that the word "punishment" would have several usages. Most non-scientists have no concept of "natural law" and the difference between it and the legislated laws with we are all familiar. So theologians would assume that the natural laws, including in particular the laws of God, are legislated laws generated by God. In my posts, I was trying to differentiate between the results of disobeying a legislated law and ignoring a natural law. Even the translators of I John 3:4 in KJV seem to have missed that distinction. Maybe if I used the word correction or reproof or discipline instead of punishment for disobedience to a legislated law, my meaning would have been clearer.

In any event, you seem to be echoing thoughts similar to what I was trying to express. In that first post, I like the way you explained the results of sinning and the power play that a sinful life develops in us. You also made an interesting statement that resonates with me. You said, "Jesus in prayer to His Father said that knowing God is eternal life. He said He finished His work by glorifying God and magnifying His name. This is another way of saying that Jesus made God's character known. He did this by healing others and proclaiming the Good News about God." This presents a different paradigm of salvation than that which we usually hear. It puts the emphasis on helping others and glorifying God rather than persuading people to accept some doctrinal principles. Particularly those principles which make God out to be some kind of tyrant. I appreciate your post.

RL