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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#111944
04/18/09 06:19 PM
04/18/09 06:19 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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GC, most of what you presented both prelapsarians and postlapsarians would agree. Where I see a difference is on the tendencies to sin part. Here's something from Haskell: "Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us."
This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness. (RH 10/2/1900) The first paragraph is Ellen White from "The Desire of Ages," Haskell quoting her. The second is his commenting on that: "This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations." This is what Adventists understood universally to be the case (excluding the Holy Flesh proponents) until the middle of last century.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#111945
04/18/09 06:30 PM
04/18/09 06:30 PM
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I'm not understanding you. Do you and Waggoner think that a baby needs a Savior because of his sinful nature? I've asked you several times what you think Waggoner is saying. Let's get to that first please. I didn't quote Waggoner in reference to why a baby needs a Savior, but to dispel some of the false notions as to what the postlapsarian position is in regards to sin. If you later wish to discuss what I think Waggoner's position is in relation to the baby question, we can do so.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#111946
04/18/09 06:39 PM
04/18/09 06:39 PM
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Returning to Prescott: But since the first Adam took his place, there has been a change, and humanity is sinful humanity. The power of righteousness has been lost. To redeem man from the place into which he had fallen, Jesus Christ comes, and takes the very flesh now borne by humanity; He comes in sinful flesh, and takes the case where Adam tried it and failed. He became, not a man, but He became flesh; He became human, and gathered all humanity unto Himself, embraced it in His own infinite mind, and stood as the representative of the whole human family. This is from the quote of which it was said "I believe every word." As I pointed out, this would only be possible by not understanding what Prescott meant. To substantiate Prescott's meaning, here is Prescott presenting the same argument in different words: Christ assumed, not the original unfallen, but our fallen humanity. In this second experiment, He stood not precisely where Adam before Him had, but with immense odds against Him--evil, with all the prestige of victory and its consequent enthronement in the very constitution of our nature, armed with more terrific power against the possible realization of the divine idea of man--perfect holiness. All this considered, the disadvantages of the situation, the tremendous risks involved, and the fierceness of the opposition encountered, we come to come adequate sense both of the reality and greatness of that vast moral achievemnet: human nature tempted, tried, miscarried in Adam, lifted up in Christ to the sphere of actualized sinlessness. It seems a bit disingenuous to me to be assert that you believe in what Prescott said when he asserted that Christ came in sinful flesh, doing so by assuming a definition for sinful flesh that he did not have. If you look at the language of Haskell, Prescott, Jones and Waggoner, it's all similar, as is the logic. You don't agree with the concepts Prescott was presenting, which were the same that Jones, Waggoner, Haskell and others were presenting. Do you not know that Waggoner got the ideas presented here from Jones?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#111949
04/18/09 09:20 PM
04/18/09 09:20 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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The wages of SIN is death. If the child has not sinned, it would receive no such wages That's correct, GC. Since the baby is born with a selfish nature, he is born loving himself more than God, and so he is born as a transgressor of the first commandment. I guess I am not an average Seventh-day Adventist. I do not accept the theology presented in that quote (from the BRI site). Why? I guess it's this part of the quote I disagree with, speaking of newborns: "even though he/she has never broken any commandment." To me, sin is the transgression of the law. A baby cannot both be a "sinner" and have "never broken any commandment" at one and the same time. The Catholic dogma of immaculate conception is that Mary didn't have a selfish nature, and that's why she didn't transmit it to Jesus. Do you agree or disagree with this? It's been so long since I studied this (in English) that I may have forgotten the proper term for it. Perhaps I have inadvertently chosen the wrong one, for I do NOT believe that Mary was perfect, only that Jesus was. Is there a term which describes this better? As a matter of fact, I have sometimes thought that when the Bible says "when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his son..." it implies that Jesus did not enter Mary's womb for the entire nine months, but only joined himself to humanity when she was due to be delivered. This is because, to me, the "fullness of time" seems like a euphemism for "due date." However, I have no strong view on this, I feel it is unimportant, and it hardly matters which way God chose to do it, because He could have been protected from man's sinful propensities in other ways as well. Prenatal influence, however, is a big thing, and I feel that is where most of the "inherited tendencies" to sin are passed on to the next generation. I do not believe that Jesus had tendencies to sin. His temptations to sin were powerful, and stronger than we are called to bear, and He could have chosen to sin at any time; but He did not have any leaning towards sin, as we do. To me, tendencies toward sin are themselves sinful, and we are called to overcome such tendencies. This is why I do not believe Jesus could ever have had them. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#111950
04/18/09 10:22 PM
04/18/09 10:22 PM
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Brazil
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I'm not understanding you. Do you and Waggoner think that a baby needs a Savior because of his sinful nature? I've asked you several times what you think Waggoner is saying. Let's get to that first please. I didn't quote Waggoner in reference to why a baby needs a Savior, but to dispel some of the false notions as to what the postlapsarian position is in regards to sin. If you later wish to discuss what I think Waggoner's position is in relation to the baby question, we can do so. I have already replied that the only thing I can think of that Waggoner is referring to is man's sinful nature as sin. However, what I want you to do is to explain this in relation to the baby question. As to dispeling some of the false notions as to what the postlapsarian position is, I think you must dispel these false notions from the mind of Kirkpatrick et al, for this is the position held by all present postlapsarians I know.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#111951
04/18/09 10:34 PM
04/18/09 10:34 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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Canada
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I do not believe that Jesus had tendencies to sin. His temptations to sin were powerful, and stronger than we are called to bear, and He could have chosen to sin at any time; but He did not have any leaning towards sin, as we do. To me, tendencies toward sin are themselves sinful, and we are called to overcome such tendencies. This is why I do not believe Jesus could ever have had them. To me tendencies to sin is inscribe physically and mentally in our genetic makeup. With Heb 2:17, "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren.", it was an obligation for Jesus to come as one of us, so that his sacrifice would be acceptable and to be able to justify any of us. Because of this text and others, I switch to believe that Jesus had the body with the inheritence of the tendencies toward sin, however, from day 1(don't know if it's from the conception like John the Baptist, the womb was filled with the Holy Spirit or as you suggested before birth), Jesus always abideth 100% to the Father's Spirit, and therefore did not sin. I believe that Jesus did not possess any of the Godly powers(omni-potent, immortality, omniscience, or omnipresence)Phil 2:7. He was 100% man, but still was 100% the Son of God, because He was who He was. However, I don't know if being the "Son of God" over-ride his inherited tendensies toward sin? My hunch is no, because of Heb 2. I agree with Rosangela and Arnold's definition of sin and it's victory is through the spirit/mental and not the physical. We have the promise of having Christ victory through His indwelling spirit. Is there other Bible text that can shed light on this question?
Blessings
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Elle]
#111952
04/18/09 10:42 PM
04/18/09 10:42 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I do not believe that Jesus had tendencies to sin. His temptations to sin were powerful, and stronger than we are called to bear, and He could have chosen to sin at any time; but He did not have any leaning towards sin, as we do. To me, tendencies toward sin are themselves sinful, and we are called to overcome such tendencies. This is why I do not believe Jesus could ever have had them. To me tendencies to sin is inscribe physically and mentally in our genetic makeup. With Heb 2:17, "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren.", it was an obligation for Jesus to come as one of us, so that his sacrifice would be acceptable and to be able to justify any of us. Because of this text and others, I switch to believe that Jesus had the body with the inheritence of the tendencies toward sin, however, from day 1(don't know if it's from the conception like John the Baptist, the womb was filled with the Holy Spirit or as you suggested before birth), Jesus always abideth 100% to the Father's Spirit, and therefore did not sin. I believe that Jesus did not possess any of the Godly powers(omni-potent, immortality, omniscience, or omnipresence)Phil 2:7. He was 100% man, but still was 100% the Son of God, because He was who He was. However, I don't know if being the "Son of God" over-ride his inherited tendensies toward sin? My hunch is no, because of Heb 2. I agree with Rosangela and Arnold's definition of sin and it's victory is through the spirit/mental and not the physical. We have the promise of having Christ victory through His indwelling spirit. Is there other Bible text that can shed light on this question? Elle, If you wish to quote Heb 2:17, "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren," and then tell me that is why you believe Jesus had tendencies to sin, you might as well tell me He was a sinner. We are. If He was to be "made like unto His brethren," why not be made as a sinner? Only then could He truly understand what we experience, right? Wrong. This is a devil-inspired doubt, but I'm sure every Christian at one time or another thinks it. We all must surely feel at times that since Jesus had never sinned, He could not truly understand our trials at overcoming the sin addiction. But this is wrong. He created us. He knows our thoughts. He lived among us, surrounded by sin--yet He remained unswayed by it. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#111953
04/18/09 10:56 PM
04/18/09 10:56 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I guess it's this part of the quote I disagree with, speaking of newborns: "even though he/she has never broken any commandment." To me, sin is the transgression of the law. A baby cannot both be a "sinner" and have "never broken any commandment" at one and the same time. Yes GC, you are right. I think they mean breaking the commandments by acts of sin. It's been so long since I studied this (in English) that I may have forgotten the proper term for it. Perhaps I have inadvertently chosen the wrong one, for I do NOT believe that Mary was perfect, only that Jesus was. Is there a term which describes this better? It seems there isn’t a specific term for this. I think you would have to say “born without tendencies to sin.” As a matter of fact, I have sometimes thought that when the Bible says "when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his son..." it implies that Jesus did not enter Mary's womb for the entire nine months, but only joined himself to humanity when she was due to be delivered. This is because, to me, the "fullness of time" seems like a euphemism for "due date." However, I have no strong view on this, I feel it is unimportant, and it hardly matters which way God chose to do it, because He could have been protected from man's sinful propensities in other ways as well. Yes, we will never know it this side of eternity. As the Baker letter says, “The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. ... The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know.” {13MR 19.1}
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Elle]
#111954
04/18/09 10:59 PM
04/18/09 10:59 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Is there other Bible text that can shed light on this question? How about Mrs. White? God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2} [Christ's Object Lessons (1900)]
The refining influence of the grace of God changes the natural disposition of man. Heaven would not be desirable to the carnal-minded; their natural, unsanctified hearts would feel no attraction toward that pure and holy place, and if it were possible for them to enter, they would find there nothing congenial. The propensities that control the natural heart must be subdued by the grace of Christ before fallen man is fitted to enter heaven and enjoy the society of the pure, holy angels. When man dies to sin and is quickened to new life in Christ, divine love fills his heart; his understanding is sanctified; he drinks from an inexhaustible fountain of joy and knowledge, and the light of an eternal day shines upon his path, for with him continually is the Light of life. {AA 273.2} [The Acts of the Apostles (1911)] To me, it is clear that tendencies to sin are sin. Mrs. White is here calling our attention to the fact that tendencies to sin are imperfections of character, which are sin. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Elle]
#111955
04/18/09 11:29 PM
04/18/09 11:29 PM
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5500+ Member
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Brazil
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Because of this text and others, I switch to believe that Jesus had the body with the inheritence of the tendencies toward sin, however, from day 1(don't know if it's from the conception like John the Baptist, the womb was filled with the Holy Spirit or as you suggested before birth), Jesus always abideth 100% to the Father's Spirit, and therefore did not sin. But Elle, John the Baptist was a sinner, like the rest of the human race, while Jesus was without sin. If both were filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, what made the difference between John the Baptist and Jesus, especially while they were still young children? I believe that Jesus did not possess any of the Godly powers(omni-potent, immortality, omniscience, or omnipresence) You seem to have missed it, but I asked you in the other thread how you explain the first temptation if Jesus couldn't change stones into bread.
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