I agree that language is a problem. Surely noone has been as skilled at this as Jesus Christ. How wonderfully He was able to communicate with any class!

To try to get around this problem, I often ask a lot of questions and try to keep posts short to get an idea of where the other fellow is coming from. To those who are familiar with legal language, I will often try to communicate concepts that way, as the concepts are, I'm thinking, more likely to be understood. There is certainly a lot of legal language used in inspiration.

Ellen White often communicates the plan of salvation without legal language (although she often uses legal language to). Two chapters that come to mind where she wonderfully communicates the Gospel are chapters 1 and 79 ("It is Finished") in the Desire of Ages.

I look forward to more of your posts.

.

[ January 01, 2005, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Tom and Boblee, both of you are dead wrong regarding the penalty phase of judgment (please ignore the pun). The idea that sin and sinners eliminate themselves in the lake of fire implies that God just stands by wringing his fingers mumbling, My, oh my, oh my.

Mike,

Your question regarding the penalty phase of judgment is interesting. First of all, what action on the part of "sinners" requires "punishment?" The Bible clearly specifies that the sin which is unto death (I John 5:16,17) brings wages (Rom 6:23), not punishment. So it seems obvious that the sins which are punishable are not the ones which lead to death. That sinners die is undeniable, but where do we find that God does the killing?

Second, let's look at the record of havoc in Earth's history. First of all, we know that humans have always attributed to God almost anything that they do not understand. Even today in our official language we speak of "Acts of God" when we refer to hurricanes, tornados, floods, fires, wars, accidents, and other trauma which God obviously has no part in producing. We also know that the Jews around the time of Ezra gathered the various manuscripts and oral traditions to make up what we know as the Old Testament. At the same time, they probably redacted much of it to fit their contemporary understanding. For instance, the role of women was modified to fit their belief that women were unimportant to God (otherwise why don't the second and tenth commandments apply to women?). If, perchance, you object to the concept that the Bible was redacted, tell me why the we have two different versions of the ten commandments which were written by God Himself on tables of stone (Exodus 20 and Deut. 5)? Since they still had the stone with them, it seems that they should have translated both versions the same way.

It seems obvious that God didn't cause Adam to eat the apple or Cain to kill Abel. Every aspect of the flood story would be a direct consequence of a meteor or bolide striking Earth. We don't know what their capabilities were, but the flood could well have been caused by the humans themselves, perhaps in an attempt to put another moon in their sky. From then until around 700 BC, there were a series of disasters which occurred about 55 years apart every 605 years or so. These include the Tower of Babel, Sodom, the Exodus, Joshua's long day, the destruction in David's day, (I Chron 21, II Sam 24), the disaster of Joel's and Amos' day, and the destruction of Sennacherib in Isaiah's day. One can argue that God caused all these, but the regularity with which they occurred seems to indicate that they had a natural cause. Donald W. Patten in several of his books suggests that at that time Mars was in a 2:1 synchronous orbit with Earth and crossed Earth's path closely enough to cause the observed havoc.

In other cases, Er and Onan (Gen. 38) could have died from natural causes, Uzzah may well have died from an electric shock (the ark was built like a big capacitor), and Ananias and Sapphira from heart attacks.

What I'm pointing out is that there is very little evidence that God ever killed anyone! When we insisted on killing each other as in Moses' and Joshua's time, He set down parameters for such activity, but just as He told the Israelites that He would drive out the Canaanites with hornets (Exod 23:28) and hornets are not lethal, God does not seem to be in the killing business. So why is it assumed that God gets in the killing business in the end when there is much reason to believe the wicked will try to destroy the City and subsequently reap the consequences of that imprudence?

RL

Boblee, the expression “wages of sin” is a metaphor. Not only is sin punishable by death, it’s the worst death imaginable. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment… there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Mat 25:46, 30. “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.” Rev 14:11. They suffer the pangs of every sin they have ever committed until they die. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Mat 10:28.

The notion that God has never killed anyone is totally unbiblical. It forces us to read the Bible like a fairytale. If we cannot take God at His word, if we cannot read the Bible the way it’s written, if it is left with us to figure out what plain speech means, as if it contains hidden meaning not obvious – then we are more than all people most miserable. No, the Bible means what it says. God is in control, not death or natural law. Whether He causes or permits death and disaster the results are the same – God is responsible for everything that happens. Why? Because He possesses the power to prevent everything that happens, without violating our freedom to choose.

EW 289, 290
My attention was again directed to the earth. The wicked had been destroyed, and their dead bodies were lying upon its surface. The wrath of God in the seven last plagues had been visited upon the inhabitants of the earth, causing them to gnaw their tongues from pain and to curse God. The false shepherds had been the signal objects of Jehovah's wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet. After the saints had been delivered by the voice of God, the wicked multitude turned their rage upon one another. The earth seemed to be deluged with blood, and dead bodies were from one end of it to the other. {EW 289.3}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Tom, I did not say that's what you believe. I said what you believe implies it. But please set the record staight. If sin and sinners destroy themselves, what is God doing in the meantime?

EDIT - Tom, do you actually agree with everything Boblee is saying about the OT and how people died? and about the NT and how people will die? What about the way he attempts to explain how things happened and will happen? That is, do you believe the Flood was the result of natural law? that the lake of fire is the result of bombs bouncing off a force shield around the New Jerusalem?

[ November 27, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Regarding what Boblee has written, I'd rather reserve my thoughts to what happens at the destruction of the wicked for the time being. We're discussing that on the thread Daniel has started for that purpose.

If God does not take an active role in the destruction and punishment of the unsaved, then what will He do while they are perishing in the lake of fire? Will He be rejoicing with the holy angels, and with the rest of us?