Mike, she wrote what she saw in vision. Later on she explained what she saw meant. Symbolic texts should by interpreted in the light of non-symbolic ones, not the other way around.

In addition, we have the whole of Scripture, and especially the life of Christ, which reveals to us the character of God. How God treats the wicked must be in harmony with the revelation God gives of Himself in Christ.

... and in the OT, where Jesus executed hundreds and thousands of people for resisting His will, His way, and His chosen people. Yes, executing people is a strange act for a loving God, but the wrath of God is love. Just because we cannot relate to it or comprehend it, doesn't give us the right to twist the truth about it. What Sister White saw in EW, regarding hell fire, was not symbolic.

I'm not sure why this thread is continue to deal with the wrath of God when Daniel specifically started a new thread to deal with that. Well as long as this is going on in two fronts, I'll post what the OT has to say about God's wrath in a moment, but would like to ask the question what makes you so sure the fire in Revelation is literal? How do you reconcile that with DA 764 which points out that God is the consuming fire and it is His glory which destroys the wicked, and that it is not an arbitrary act of power of God?

OT texts on wrath:

"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)

"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)

"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)

"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 King 17:17-20)

"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)

"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)

"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)

"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)

"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)

Mike

Two details bother me in what you say. You say: "maybe the word ‘inevitable' is better than the word ‘existence.'" but to me that is backward. There is only one reason to believe that sin is inevitable which you introduced in a later statement where you say "But by virtue of the fact He knew in advance that they would sin and die, ..." How could God "know" they would sin and die? There is no Biblical evidence that God knows anything in advance except that which He Himself planned and/or caused to happen. Even then some of the things He prophecied never happened (Nineveh was NOT destroyed in 40 days; Ezekiel 40-48 never happened nor ever will; God did NOT return to heaven as He said He would in Exodus 32:33-35 and 33; shall I go on?). Your concept that God knew in advance that sin was inevitable is apparently based on the concept that God knows the intimate details of the future. But that concept makes a mockery of "free choice."

It should be obvious that if it can be known by any manner or means whatever what I am going to do in the future, then I have no choice in the matter. If God actually gave humans free choice or free will, then by definition, God cannot know the future in that detail. He only knows what choices He has made.

I admit, if God knew which being or which world was going to rebel against Him and He made that being or world anyhow, then God must be responsible for sin as you suggested. But you may notice I would use your argument in reverse to prove that God cannot know all of the future which is another, but related subject.

Maybe it's time to take Ellen White seriously when she says:

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error." R & H, Dec 20, 1892.

RL

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Boblee, do you see a contrast or a contradiction between the following quotes?

"I admit, if God knew which being or which world was going to rebel against Him and He made that being or world anyhow, then God must be responsible for sin as you suggested. But you may notice I would use your argument in reverse to prove that God cannot know all of the future which is another, but related subject." {Boblee}

DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

You're right, Tom, this thread has gone astray. In light of the wrath of God, the punishment and destruction of the wicked, He is justified is killing them in the lake of fire because they refused and/or rejected to live in harmony with His law, because they despised the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. Whether it is His exceeding brightness that kills them or literal fire, or both, the main thing is that God is just and loving for eliminating them forever.

In light of the love of God revealed on the cross, demonstrating the lethalness of sin, regarding the punishment and destruction of the wicked, God is justified in destroying them by allowing them to reap the consequences of their own choice because they refused and/or rejected to be in harmony with His character, because they despised the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The main thing is that God is just, loving and merciful for bringing sin to an end in such a way that all can see His goodness.

Okay. But do you really believe God is loving? What kind of God walks onto the scene and kills everybody because He chose not to hide the brightness of His glory? Just how just is that? Why not send Jesus instead?

I find this to be a very odd question. You seem to think Jesus and God are different. Sending Jesus, as you put it, wouldn't change a thing. When Christ comes the second time the wicked call for the mountains to fall upon them. They would rather have rocks fall on their head then to see the eyes of their Redeemer who loves them with unlimited love.

"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." (DA 764)

In answer to your question, do I think God is loving, I answer yes, more than I can think or imagine. In answer to your question, "What kind of God walks onto the scene and kills everybody because He chose not to hide the brightness of His glory?" I answer it appears to me you are not looking at things in the same way they are being described in the above DA quote. The glory of Him who is love destroys them because the wicked choose to separate themselves from God, not because "He walks on the scene and kills them."

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Quote removed as it is from the immediately preceding post. - Daryl

[ December 03, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Mike,

As you quoted Mrs. White, "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought." I didn't say it was. When God gave free will or freedom of choice to His creation, there was indeed the possibility that somewhere, sometime, somehow, some form of rebellion would arise. The plan of salvation was an obvious preparation on God's part before He created any sentient beings to counter the possibility that sin would arise. But there is no reason to believe it was inevitable. Or for that matter, that Lucifer would be the one to start it. Nor is it obvious that Earth would be the place where it would continue.

So where's the contradiction? The only contradiction I see is with those who claim that God knows the future but also say God didn't start sin. I understood you to resolve the dilemma by suggesting God did start sin; while I resolve it by suggesting that God does not claim to know all the details of the future (only those things which He intends to control).

RL