Mike

It's interesting that you would say, "if we cannot read the Bible the way it's written, if it is left with us to figure out what plain speech means, as if it contains hidden meaning not obvious – then we are more than all people most miserable;" but when I take the Bible the way it's written (the wages of sin is death), you call it "a metaphor."

You may be right, of course; the "crime/punishment" paradigm may indeed be correct. There is much in Scripture to support it. But there is also much in Scripture which supports a cause/effect paradigm which I am exploring. Part of the problem, of course, is the multitude of meanings each of our buzzwords contains. Can we really define "wages" as a "punishment?" For that matter, what is "punishment?" Is the splat at the bottom a punishment for falling off a cliff? And what is "sin?" Is falling off a cliff a sin God can't just forgive or overlook? God forgave Moses for striking the rock. Or maybe that wasn't really a sin! If not, then why didn't God let Moses go into the promised land? If so, how could God resurrect and take him to heaven, long before Calvary. So just how do sin and salvation and punishment fit together. To me, it's not nearly as clear using the traditional crime/punishment paradigm as it is in the cause/effect paradigm.

You also said, "the Bible means what it says." I agree. But what does the Bible actually say? We don't take the parables literally, nor much of the poetry (like the attitude of the psalmist in Psalm 137:8,9), nor many of the prophecies (remember water=peoples, a day=a year, beasts=nations, etc.?). We teach, for instance, that the dead righteous stay in their graves until Jesus comes. But Paul tells us that God brings the righteous with Him when He comes for His people (I Thess 4:14). Then there's that "great multitude" John saw in heaven between the sixth and seventh seals (Rev 7:9) and again just before the seven last plagues were poured out (Rev 15:2). If the righteous don't go to heaven when they die, where did all those people come from? On the present subject, you claim that "the notion that God has never killed anyone is totally unbiblical." There are texts which support that notion, but as I pointed out, almost all those texts can be interpreted in other ways that to me make a lot more sense. I believe it is SIN that kills, not God. To paraphrase Paul (Romans 6:23 again), Sin causes Death. Why is that so hard to believe?

RL

Mike,

Now I see where you're coming from. My cousin also believes that God is the author of sin. He believes that this planet and its humans are a new and distinct creation which God designed for the specific purpose of demonstrating the results of sin to the universe. You seem to have picked up a similar paradigm, and if so, the rest of what you are saying makes sense.

I find much in Scripture which is contrary to that view and very little Scripture to support it, but there is enough support that I can't really argue about it.

RL

"Nothing is more plainly taught in
Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given." (GC 493)

Doesn't this mean that God is not responsible for the existence of sin?

"The way God proposes to do this is by eliminating sin and sinners in the lake of fire."


"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.

It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe....

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law." (DA "It is Finished")

Sorry the quote is so long.

What this brings out is that God could not eliminate sin by force, as your paradigm seems to indicate. First of all, God does not use compelling force, as it is not according to His character. Secondly, sin cannot be eliminated by force. It's not destroyed by brute power, but by love and truth, the governing principles of God's government.

It is the truth of God's character that places the universe in a state of eternal security. Sin will not arise again because all will know the truth of who God is. To know God is life eternal.

Tom, I couldn't help but noticing you did not respond to Sister White's description of hell fire in Early Writings. Yes, of course, there is nothing arbitrary about the glory of God consuming the wicked at the end of time. But when we take into account all the inspired insights concerning hell fire, we cannot avoid the conclusion that it involves both the glory of God and literal flames. And there is absolutely nothing arbitrary about the death of the wicked in a lake of fire. God will win the great controversy, Satan will lose, and then the destruction of the wicked will seem like the loving thing to do. All of us, who will be standing there watching them die a painful and hideous death, will say, Amen! righteous and holy are thy ways, O Lord. A strange act, yes, but a loving one nonetheless.