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Re: Justification
#11219
12/02/04 07:29 PM
12/02/04 07:29 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I agree with you that the Father and Jesus are equal. Sorry for the confusion. When Jesus walked among men His brightness did not kill sinners. When Jesus appeared unto Moses on the mount His brightness did not kill him. That’s what I meant when I posted – Why not send Jesus instead? In reality, when Jesus does return, the man of sin, and no doubt many others, will be destroyed by His brightness. quote:
The glory of Him who is love destroys them because the wicked choose to separate themselves from God, not because "He walks on the scene and kills them."
I don’t think I made my point clear. I thought you have been saying all along that the wicked are destroyed because God of the brightness of countenance. Well, it seems logical to me, that if God chose to conceal His brightness, or chose to stay away from the wicked, that they would continue to live and, if they had access to the tree of life, they would live forever. Since these things are so, then it stands to reason that the wicked will be destroyed the moment God “walks on the scene”, unless, of course, He chooses to conceal His brightness. Thus, whether or not they die depends on whether or not God conceals His glory, which means God is ultimately responsible - which is a good thing, because I'd rather God in control.
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Re: Justification
#11220
12/02/04 07:37 PM
12/02/04 07:37 PM
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SDA
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Boblee, please reread this quote. Do you really think it implies God did not foreknow that Satan would rebel and that mankind would sin? Also, your assessment of my thoughts on the origin of sin are not accurate. Saying that God created the potential for sin and death is not the same thing as saying God forced Satan or mankind to sin.
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
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Re: Justification
#11221
12/02/04 08:15 PM
12/02/04 08:15 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I don’t think I made my point clear. I thought you have been saying all along that the wicked are destroyed because God of the brightness of countenance. Well, it seems logical to me, that if God chose to conceal His brightness, or chose to stay away from the wicked, that they would continue to live and, if they had access to the tree of life, they would live forever.
God's purpose is to do away with sin as quickly as possible. That's always been His purpose, as soon as there was sin. God keeps the wicked alive (that includes us -- yay!) so that they (we) may have the opportunity to choose to live according to the principles of His government (love for others, truth) rather than the principles of Satan's government (love of self, compelling force).
God has always done all He can to bring sin to an end, not perpetuate it. The 1,000 years are necessary to answer all of the questions of the redeemed. After these questions are answered, God can turn to the questions of the wicked. After those questions are answered, all the questions have been answered. There's no reason for sin to continue to exist.
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Re: Justification
#11222
12/02/04 08:37 PM
12/02/04 08:37 PM
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SDA
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Yes, that's all well and fine, but you didn't comment on the most important point of my last post to you - the conclusion of the whole matter. quote:
Since these things are so, then it stands to reason that the wicked will be destroyed the moment God “walks on the scene”, unless, of course, He chooses to conceal His brightness. Thus, whether or not they die depends on whether or not God conceals His glory, which means God is ultimately responsible - which is a good thing, because I'd rather have God in control.
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Re: Justification
#11223
12/02/04 09:10 PM
12/02/04 09:10 PM
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OP
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God has chosen to put us in control. We decide whether we live or die. quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
This makes it as plain as can be stated that it is by the choice of the wicked that they die. God would rather they live, but they choose to die, and God respects their choice. Here's another statement that brings out the same principle:
quote:
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
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Re: Justification
#11224
12/03/04 01:06 AM
12/03/04 01:06 AM
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Mike,
We are getting into the area of study where two parties can easily disagree and both be technically correct. The relevant quote says, "From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate." Tell me, what "beginning?" The way you refer to it makes it sound like you believe she means all the way back at the beginning of God, whenever that was. But there is no reason to go back that far. It more likely means God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan at the moment Satan began to apostatize and of the fall of man at the moment Adam took the "apple" out of Eve's hand to eat it. There is no possible way God could have known where apostasy would originate before it actually happened. Unless you've found some reference I've missed; that seems to be one of the "concepts of men" we're told to ignore, not a truth from God. That is unless you believe God deliberately made Satan for the purpose of rebelling and made Adam to provide a medium to demonstrate the problem of sin to the universe (like my cousin believes).
You did try to differentiate between God creating the potential for sin and death (which I believe) and God forcing Satan or mankind to sin, but you didn't add the third option that God could possibly know of Satan's and Adam's actions in advance without influencing that action. As you may surmise, I see foreknowledge of an action as identical to forcing that action. There are many who don't see it that way and I get the impression you are one of them. At this stage of our spiritual development, there isn't much way to tell which of us is correct if either.
RL
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Re: Justification
#11225
12/03/04 03:18 AM
12/03/04 03:18 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"I see foreknowledge of an action as identical to forcing that action."
I think you can tell if you are following our discussions that I in general agree with your point of view, but I disagree with the above sentence. I think your thinking in general is correct, but your statement is IMO inaccurate.
First of all, I have foreknowledge of my wife, and I'm not forcing her action. I know if I call her around quitting time she will say to me, "Vem para casa." (Come home). She always says that. I'm certainly not forcing her to do so.
Certain individuals have fixed their characters having either settled into truth or error, so God knows what they will do. For example, God knows exactly what Satan will do. He's told us in great detail. But God is not forcing Satan's actions.
I think a more accurate way of putting things is that if God has exhaustive definate foreknowledge (EDF) then the future must be fixed and if the future is fixed then we cannot have free will. Hence EDF is logically imcompattible with free will. However God's foreknowledge of actions does not cause our actions.
At least that's not how I see it. I'll await your response.
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Re: Justification
#11226
12/03/04 04:36 AM
12/03/04 04:36 AM
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SDA
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Jesus cannot justify forgiving someone who refuses to crucify known sin.
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Re: Justification
#11227
12/03/04 04:42 AM
12/03/04 04:42 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
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Re: Justification
#11228
12/03/04 05:35 AM
12/03/04 05:35 AM
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,
[ January 01, 2005, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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