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Re: Justification
#11229
12/03/04 02:48 PM
12/03/04 02:48 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, are you implying Jesus will justify the wicked, who refuse to repent, who refuse to crucify their known sins, who cling to their pet sins? If not, then what are the conditions upon which Jesus can justify sinners? justify them unto salvation and eternal life?
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Re: Justification
#11230
12/03/04 09:04 PM
12/03/04 09:04 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm not following you Mike.
I wrote:
"God has chosen to put us in control. We decide whether we live or die."
To which you replied:
"Jesus cannot justify forgiving someone who refuses to crucify known sin."
What's your train of thought? Where did your comment come from? How did you get from what I wrote to what you wrote? Or was your response meant for someone else?
I responded that Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." This shows that forgivenss is in God's heart (Jesus was God). Forgiveness springs from God. Certainly those crucifying Christ were not "crucifying known sin," yet Jesus prayed for God to forgive them. Was Jesus praying contrary to God's will. Was His theology confused?
To this you responded, "Tom, are you implying Jesus will justify the wicked, who refuse to repent, who refuse to crucify their known sins, who cling to their pet sins? If not, then what are the conditions upon which Jesus can justify sinners? justify them unto salvation and eternal life?"
I can't follow this jump any more than the other. Please explain your reasoning for both jumps.
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Re: Justification
#11231
12/03/04 11:14 PM
12/03/04 11:14 PM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14
US
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We are to forgive those that do evil to us even as thy are doing it. Christ forgive everyone but not everyone asked to be forgive. He has done His part now it is up to us to do our part. As long as we hang onto sin Christ forgiveness will do us no good.
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Re: Justification
#11232
12/04/04 04:11 AM
12/04/04 04:11 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I was addressing the topic of this thread - Justification. Your response seemed to imply you believe Jesus has forgiven everyone. I was hoping you would clarify.
Edison, I agree with your post.
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Re: Justification
#11233
12/04/04 05:18 AM
12/04/04 05:18 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Sin is selfishness, and selfishness kills because it cuts itself off from God, who is the source of life.
- - - - - Quoted from Tom Ewall post - - - - - -
But Satan and his gangs are alife now and would remain alife forever even they were cut off from the Source of life for thousands of years, they are immortal in spite of their selfishness, where Lucifer is the creator.
Unless God take action, they remain alife forever and sin and sinners remain in God’s universe forever and ever.
I think you really must change your view; it is God who kill, it is God who execute the death upon sinners including Satan and his gangs, it is God who create death in order sin and sinners would not live forever.
In His love
James S
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Re: Justification
#11234
12/04/04 06:00 AM
12/04/04 06:00 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: Justification
#11235
12/05/04 03:25 AM
12/05/04 03:25 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
But Satan and his gangs are alife now and would remain alife forever even they were cut off from the Source of life for thousands of years, they are immortal in spite of their selfishness, where Lucifer is the creator.
Unless God take action, they remain alife forever and sin and sinners remain in God’s universe forever and ever.
This isn't true. Noone has life in and of themselves. God doesn't need to kill them. If they cut themselves off from God, the source of all life, they did:
quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
quote:
God is the fountain of life, and we can have life only as we are in communion with Him. Separated from God, existence may be ours for a little time, but we do not possess life...If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. (MB 61,62)
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Re: Justification
#11236
12/06/04 03:07 AM
12/06/04 03:07 AM
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Tom
In your reply to me, you are indeed correct from my perspective. If anything, we differ in semantics, not in concept. I have always understood "foreknowledge" to be what you call "exhaustive definate foreknowledge (EDF)." If, because of some unusual circumstance, some day your wife says something different than "Vem para casa," she would have made my point. But she would not have negated your point. We were just using different words to express the same concept.
RL
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Re: Justification
#11237
12/06/04 04:29 AM
12/06/04 04:29 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I agree Boblee that's it's a matter of semantics, but I think it's an important distinction. I've been careful to say that God's foreknowledge does not force our actions, which I believe is accurate. I think accuracy is important here, as the subject matter is difficult enough to communicate, even in the best of circumstances.
God's having EDF implies a fixed future, which is not compatible with our having free will. I think we both agree with this. However, God's having EDF would not, in and of itself, cause us to do anything -- it would imply a condition in which our free will would be a logically impossibility.
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Re: Justification
#11238
12/07/04 03:22 AM
12/07/04 03:22 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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We wouldn't have the freedom to choose were it not for the plan of salvation, were it not for our second probation. Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice. We cannot not sin. God restores our freedom to choose the moment we are born again. But our ability to choose is limited.
As born again believers, abiding in Jesus, we cannot choose not to sin, we cannot choose to be good instead of bad, no, our choices are limited to one choice - Jesus. All we can do, when we are tempted to be unChristlike, is choose Jesus. By choosing to keep our eyes on Jesus, by choosing to stay connected to Him, to abide in Him, we ally ourselves to the only source of power that can bring us off more than conquerors.
If we refuse to choose Jesus, we sin by default. We do not have to choose sin in order to sin, all we have to do is refuse to choose Jesus, and then all we can do is sin. The choice to be Christlike rests with us, but the power to be Christlike rests with God. When we choose to cooperate with God, to keep our eyes on Jesus, God chooses to empower us to resist temptation and to imitate the example of Jesus.
Our justification is based on this cooperation. If we choose to cooperate with Jesus, then the blood of Jesus justifies us, that is, God is just in justifying our pardon and power to obey. If we refuse to repent and forsake our sins, then God will not and cannot pardon us or empower us to obey. We are the slaves of Satan if we refuse to consent and cooperate with the plan of salvation, we forfeit our freedom to choose Jesus, to choose salvation.
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