Tom, I believe the following passages makes it clear that we are the natural born slaves of sin, self and Satan. God cannot justify anyone who does not surrender his will to the control of Christ.

Matthew
6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans
6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Galatians
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

5T 515
But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: ‘Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure.’ When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ’s character. {5T 515}

None of the statements you quoted implies we do not have freedom of choice. Seventh-day Adventists to not teach this. Calvinists believe the will is held in bondage until God frees it, which is a unilateral action on His part. Is your thinking like this? Or is it different?

IMO your statement is so obviously not true given normal parlance regarding "freedom of choice" ( that is, your statement that we don't have freedom of choice before being born again) that you must have some restricted meaning in mind for "freedom of choice." For example, an unbeliever can be tempted to commit adultery, and has the freedom of choice to resist the tempation.

To be clear, here is your statement:

quote:

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Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice.

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What do you mean be saying unbelievers don't have freedom of choice?

.

[ January 01, 2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Glad ta see ya around bro Doug...sheesh, it's been awhile.

Mike,

In your post of Dec 6, 12:22 pm, you made some statements that sound strange to me. For instance, just how do you define sin in such a way that you can say, "Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice. We cannot not sin" or "If we refuse to choose Jesus, we sin by default. We do not have to choose sin in order to sin, all we have to do is refuse to choose Jesus, and then all we can do is sin?"

The way you say it, it sounds like all the people who lived before Jesus came to Earth are automatically lost as well as people who have never heard of Him. Is that what you meant to say? If so, what excuse did God use to take Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to heaven? I would appreciate it if you would clarify your thinking on this point.

Incidentally I notice when you posted a number of references on Dec 7 in an attempt to answer this question, you omitted Romans 2 which basically negates your apparent interpretation of the references you posted. It's not really fair to post only the texts which agree with your concept, it would be better to quote all relevant texts and explain why you reject the ones which disagree with the concept you're trying to develop.

RL

If humans since the Fall are truly born without freedom of choice, then the whole human race is doomed, every single individual, and Jesus took on humanity and died for nothing.

If we were born without freedom of choice, then it would be impossible for us to choose to serve Christ at any subsequent time.

It's true that we can't repent without God leading us to that point by the conviction of His Spirit. But if we didn't have freedom of choice, all that convicting would be for naught. Conversion itself is the result of a choice we ourselves make.

Yes, that's it, John, that's my whole point. We only have one choice, to choose Jesus, if we do not choose Jesus then we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. Without Jesus, we have no choice but to serve sin. We have one choice, not one chance. Repentance restores our ability to choose Jesus again and again. God cannot justify anyone who refuses to choose Jesus.

Boblee, yes, you are right. There are exceptions to the rule. God will save those Gentiles, who lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience, even though they never knew the law or the Lord. In judgment, God determines who is safe to save, knowing that if they had known the truth they would have embraced it faithfully. In other words, it is evident to God that they would not have refused to choose Jesus if they had known the truth about Him. Thus, they are justified.