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Re: Justification
#11259
12/10/04 02:29 PM
12/10/04 02:29 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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James, the moment you sin, the moment any of us sins, we are under the law, the law written on stone tablets. Thus, the only way to avoid the condemnation of the law is to obey it. The law does not condemn the obedient. And, the only way to obey the law is to abide in Jesus. Without Him, our righteousness is condemned by the law. But, without the law, condemnation is impossible. God cannot justify forgiving us if we refuse to obey the law, if we refuse to abide in Jesus.
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Re: Justification
#11260
12/10/04 06:47 PM
12/10/04 06:47 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: Tom, essentially I agree with you, that is, our reward in judgment is based on the traits of character we develop in this lifetime. Tom: Not just rewards, but being in heaven at all is based on one's character. God in deciding who goes to heaven does not act in any way an arbitrary fashion. Consider, for example, the following: quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." ... The Lord bears long with their [the wicked's] perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)
Mike: But what about those people who did not keep the sabbath, or who ignorantly worshipped false gods and idols?
Tom: Those who will be in heaven will have the characterstics of having a just conception of God's qualities and will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
Mike: Or, who held false views regarding hell?
Tom: Same answer. God will take all those to heaven for whom He will not be a consuming fire.
Mike: You see, since the law is the standard by which our eternal reward is determined, none but justified and sanctified believers can be saved.
Tom: This is correct. Light always into consideration.
Mike: The uninformed Gentiles Paul talks about in Romans 2:13-15 would not survive the test of scrutiny.
Tom: They survive the test of scrutiny or not in the same way as anyone else.
Mike: In other words, even though they unwittingly obey certain facets of the law, they do not, however, obey every facet of it.
Tom: The law is exceedingly broad. Nobody obeys every facet of it. (excepting Christ, and for a time the 144,000)
Mike: This being the case, how then does God justify rewarding them with eternal life?
Tom: The same way He "justifies" rewarding anyone with eternal life. There's no difference between how God judges these and anyone else. Would they be happy in heaven? Or would they long to flee that holy place?
Mike: Are they saved on the merits of their good works, or their good characters, or their unblemished obedience, or their perfect likeness to Christ, or what?
Tom: They are saved on the same way anybody else is saved. Nobady is saved on their merits. Everybody is saved by grace.
I highlighted above in bold a particularly relevant part to what we are discussing. We note the following points: ("they" and "their" refers to "the wicked")
1) A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven.
2) Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them.
3) The glory of God would be a consuming fire for them.
4) They would long to flee from that holy place.
5) They would welcome destruction.
6) Not being hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them causes them distress.
7) Their destiny is fixed by their own choice.
8) Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.
9) Their exclusion is just and merciful on the part of God.
All those to whom the above list does not apply, God will take to heaven. (with the exception of those who are not resurrected, like slaves and children before the age of accountability, etc.)
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Re: Justification
#11261
12/10/04 07:32 PM
12/10/04 07:32 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Amen. On this we agree. Thank you for organizing everything so nicely. Strong work. God is good.
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Re: Justification
#11262
12/11/04 05:24 AM
12/11/04 05:24 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: Justification
#11263
12/20/04 09:57 AM
12/20/04 09:57 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Doug.
The reward is according to what you have done.
May I ask; What can you do? The bible said that you can not do a good thing, all what you did is by default a sin.
Through faith in Christ, you may now do the good things, which are nothing else than fruits of the Spirit, none of yours.
Therefore, justification to enter life eternal is by faith in Christ for those who had done the good things as evidence of their faiths.
So, what is God standard to justify a man for his faith? His doing, right? What has he done? Loving God and loving his fellowmen. IOW, what is God standard to justify this man? Love, which is heaven principle; God’s very nature.
But according to your opinion it is the law of the Ten Commandments, unfortunately this is against Romans 3:19,20 and Galatians 2:16; 3:11.
You seem to believe that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, but I think, you are wrong. They are NOT the same.
If any one thinks that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, then please convince me, proof it!
In His love
James S
[ December 20, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: James Saptenno ]
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Re: Justification
#11264
12/21/04 03:52 AM
12/21/04 03:52 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: Justification
#11265
12/21/04 05:15 AM
12/21/04 05:15 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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James, the law is a transcript of God's character, and since God is love, it stands to reason that law and love share common ground.
FLB 130
The question you need to put to yourselves is, "Am I a Christian?" To be a Christian is to be far more than many understand. It means more than simply having your name upon the church records. It means to be joined to Christ. It means to have simple faith, unwavering reliance upon God. It means to have childlike confidence in your heavenly Father through the name and merit of His dear Son. Do you love to keep the commandments of God, because the commandments of God are God's precepts, the transcript of His character, and can no more be altered than can the character of God? Do you respect and love the law of Jehovah? {FLB 130.4}
PP 52
The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}
UL 126
The law of God is the transcript of His character. Those who profess to keep this law, but who fail to show that they love God with heart, mind, and strength, who do not devote themselves unreservedly to His service, [and who] keep neither the first four commandments, which enjoin supreme love for God, nor the last six, which enjoin unselfish love for one another, are not obedient children. "By their fruits ye shall know them." {UL 126.2}
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Re: Justification
#11266
12/22/04 06:33 AM
12/22/04 06:33 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: Justification
#11267
12/30/04 12:45 AM
12/30/04 12:45 AM
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Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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quote:
Originally posted by James Saptenno:
You seem to believe that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, but I think, you are wrong. They are NOT the same.
If any one thinks that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, then please convince me, proof it!
In His love
James S
James, the Bible says that the Ten Commandments is the same as LOVE.
Romans 8:13
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Matthew 22:
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus clearly said that all 10 of the commandments hang on these two: Love God, and Love thy neighbor. The first 4 commandments involve your love for God, the last six, your love for neighbor.
...there you have it both from Jesus and from Paul.
Also, you mention Galatian 16, you need to realize that the Bible not only says that we are not justified BY the law. Allright that is true.
Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But the Bible says that those who DO the law will be justified, though the law does not justify you.
Rom:2:13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Also though not justified BY the law, those who DO GOOD WORKS will be justified.
Jms:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jms:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jms:2:25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
The Law cannot justify you. Only Jesus can justify you. You are justified by faith. But clearly the Bible explains that you prove you have no faith if you have no good works and if you are not a DOER of the law. It's that simple.
Jms:2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
You also mention that its the fruits of the Holy Spirit... and that you yourself can do nothing. The Holy Spirit isnt going to force you to do anything unless you submit to the Spirit. You've got a choice to make every moment.
Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom:6:19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
You really ought to take time to ponder over the Chapter 6 of Romans:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Notice that if you do not stop yielding yourself to sin (which the Bible clearly defines as transgression of the law) then the end for you will NOT be everlasting life.... THOUGH eternal life is a gift (see the last two verses).
(see verse 21) if you do not yield the fruit of rightoeusness then the end for you is DEATH and not eternal life. and the Holy Spirit does not do the yielding for you.
Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Claudia
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Re: Justification
#11268
12/31/04 07:53 PM
12/31/04 07:53 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Moses, Jesus, James, John and Paul (at least) all explicitly relate the law to love. God is love, and His law is fulfilled by love. The essence of sin is selfishness.
How can man be cured of his selfishness and learn to live in a Christ-centered way, rather than self-centered? The answer is, by beholding the truth of the cross!
The cross reveals the truth about God the Father, Christ, sin, Satan and ourselves. The cross proves that God so loved us that He gave us His Son; that Christ so loved us that He gave us Himself; that sin is so insidious that it causes the death of those who are identified by it; that Satan really is a liar, theif and murderer, just like Jesus said; and that we would murder our Creator apart from the grace of God.
As we perceive the heigh and depth and length and breadth of the love of God, by beholding we become tranformed into the same image.
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