Or, maybe I won't. We'll see. Let me explain (by going off topic).

Without going into too much detail, another mate and I had two rather atheistic school-chums leave Cambridge for Loma Linda, and out of nowhere they were mysteriously moved to reconnect to their parent's Adventist tradition. Fancy that? And though mindfully sorting through their pluralistic environment utterly consumed them, much to their parents shock and joy, I just received mail this morning that they both apparently decided last Friday to attend church (a youth Sabbath School) for the first time in years. Needless to say, I'm beside myself, as are their parents and a few others, who are also very dear to us.

And some of you on this forum helped in ways unimaginable. Believe me. Long story short, because a few of you were so absolutely brilliant in arguing either view (you know who you are!), my friend's new-found grasp on the doctrine of Christ, and specifically God's incomprehensible condescension, stirred them to dig even further down into their religious roots. And I know they will keep digging until every theological curiosity is unearthed. To be honest, until a mutual friend of ours discovered Maritime a few years ago through one of his overseas friends, there appeared to be no other platform for them (online or offline) where Christology's finer points were being dissected to this extent and with such intellectual tenacity.

I've said enough for now, I guess. Well, the conclusion is that we often have no idea how by simply discussing a doctrine skillfully, kindly we can gently prod a stranger searching for truth closer to heaven, or in our particular case, closer to Jesus and Adventism's fundamental beliefs. Just imagine having no God at all one minute, then being fully engaged with the God of Scripture the next. Bloody unbelievable, I say. (Sorry, mum.) All of this to say, the principle reason I was challenged to participate on this thread and discuss certain theological issues was for the sake of these two longtime school-chums. (Love you, Annie and Bryce! Ha, don't feel embarrassed.) Thanks to your unique contributions, in a weirdly sad way, I feel my time-consuming “work” is at last consummated (thanks, Rog!)—a peculiar mission accomplished. So, again, from the bottom of my heart, thank you all for being so generous with your time and energy. And always remember, you never know when somebody else out there may be reading and needing a literary nudge toward a welcoming Savior.

William

Hi, all. My telephone line and internet connection were finally installed today, and I see you have been busy in my absence!

William, it's refreshing to know about the Holy Spirit's working in the lives of your friends. May God continue to bless and guide them.

I agree with this. I was having trouble understanding LK's idea in regards to how prelapsarian people cannot have victory over sin. At least, that's how what he said seemed to read. There is a way of reading what he said in a way I might agree with it, but I doubt that's what he had in mind, but without knowing for sure, I can't go beyond saying I'm not understanding where he wanted to go with his comments.



Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but you believe the 144,000 will have complete victory over sin, don't you?

Many aspects of this subject have been discussed, but I would like to comment about a quote which was cited.



I would like to point out that temptations from within come from the carnal heart (mind). Ellen White evidently uses "natural" and "carnal" as synonyms, as the following quotes make clear:

If you would work as Christ worked, if you would overcome as he overcame, go straight to him for help needed to subdue the inclinations of the carnal mind and the passions of the natural heart. {ST, April 1, 1897 par. 12}

All these "natural" infirmities can be overcome by grace. But the "natural," carnal, heart is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be. ... But Jesus says, "my grace is sufficient for you." Yes it is sufficient to overcome and subdue the "natural," carnal, heart. {YI, November 1, 1857 par. 7}

Now is the time to put forth earnest effort to overcome the natural tendencies of the carnal heart. {Mar 243.3}

Of what good would He deprive us? He would deprive us of the privilege of giving up to the natural passions of the carnal heart. {2MCP 647.1}

"The carnal [or natural] mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3} (Brackets in the original)

That which is pleasing to the natural heart and carnal mind is cherished. {SA 149.1}

The refining influence of the grace of God changes the natural disposition of man. Heaven would not be desirable to the carnal-minded; their natural, unsanctified hearts would feel no attraction toward that pure and holy place; ... The carnal propensities which reign in the natural heart must be subdued by the grace of Christ, before fallen man can be elevated to harmonize with Heaven. {8Red 73.1}

It looks like the Holy Spirit can still work miracles, in spite of the material He has to work with.

Welcome back to the 21st century. I've missed you so much.

I'm not exactly sure what he's saying either, but he told me a few years ago that while prelaps can believe in victory over sin, their theology cannot logically arrive at that conclusion. He never explained to me why. And this latest quote seems to assert that the experience of victory is also beyond the grasp of prelaps.

Anyway, I'm guessing he wrote that several years ago.


Assuming the postlaps definition of sin as willful disobedience, absolutely the 144k have complete victory over sin. Every true Christian, from Adam to the end, lives in complete victory over sin.

If we are tempted on one set of things (which require fighting against feelings and desires, requiring fervent prayer), and Christ was tempted on another set of things, which He could defeat simply by following His own inclinations, then what does the one have to do with the other? (To be kept in mind that in addition to taking our sinful flesh, Christ bore our sin.)

I agree completely with this.



I completely disagree with him here, if this is what he is saying, unless this is qualified in some way.

Anyway, a person doesn't have to have a correct theology to know Christ and walk with Him (which equals victory).

That would mean that sinful flesh is the key to victory. I don't believe that.

It is easy to arrive at the doctrine of victory over sin without any kind of "lapsarian" at all. All you need is this: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

If that's not enough, there's this: Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

If they don't like that, there's this: His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)

Sticking with Peter, we find this: Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Peter 1:16)

No, postlaps do not have a monopoly on it. Just gotta take the Bible as it reads. We non-postlaps can do that, too. We just don't look for victory through the flesh, sinful or otherwise. We look for victory through His divine nature, not our evil nature.


LK said this in a sermon: