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Re: Justification #11249
12/08/04 06:10 AM
12/08/04 06:10 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” – Romans 8:4.

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,…………..which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe….” – Romans 3:21,22.

By walking after the Spirit, the righteous demands of the law is fulfilled in us.
Living by faith in Christ, God righteousness without the law is manifested in our life.

From both verses I see that Christ’ believers that is led by the Spirit might achieve a righteous-ness that fulfill the demands of the law WITHOUT being under the law’s jurisdiction. Being under the law’s jurisdiction means we are oblige to keep and obey the law and would be judge by the law.

Thus, being not under the law means, the law has no authority whatsoever upon us, in other word we may say, there is no law for us to keep and to obey. We are a free man, we are not subject to obedience of any law. At the end, there is no law that would judge us, that stands as a standard of judgment and righteousness. The only judgment against us is: Do we have the love of God in our heart and fruit of the Spirit in our life?? And those love / fruits of the Spirit is the evidence of living by faith.

“Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:30.

Justification by faith is based on a judgment without the law. God doesn’t need the Ten Commandments to judge us whether we are his faithful believer or not, God doesn’t need the Ten Commandments to judge us whether we are FIT for heaven or not.

If this idea is true, than why SDA enforced so many laws to be kept and observed??

In His love

James S.

Re: Justification #11250
12/09/04 03:06 AM
12/09/04 03:06 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, you're right, we cannot work our way to heaven by keeping the law without faith, without righteousness by faith. If we attempt to experience the "righteousness of the law" without Jesus, we are condemning ourselves in judgment, because without Jesus all our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags, nothing but condemnation, fuel for the fires of hell. We cannot live in harmony with the principles of the law without faith in and through Jesus.

The only way we can experience the "righteousness of the law", unto the honor and glory of God, is through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. By faith in the righteousness of Jesus we are justified, we are forgiven, it is as though we have never sinned. But more than this, through faith in Jesus we are empowered to partake of the divine nature, to partake of His holiness, to experience the "righteousness of the law" through faith.

In judgment, the example of Jesus, who perfectly obeyed the law, is the standard of judgment. No one will be rewarded with eternal life if their record reflects they refused to imitate the law-abiding example of Jesus. If we insist the law plays no part in judgment we are in essence saying the example of Jesus means nothing.

But the truth of matter is, the example of Jesus is proof that, by faith, it is possible to live in harmony with the requirements of the law, that the law is holy, just and good. In judgment, the law serves as an unbiased, impartial witness as to whether or not we imitated the law-abiding example of Jesus, and our eternal destiny is based on its testimony. God cannot justify anyone who refuses to imitate, by and through faith, the example of Jesus.

Re: Justification #11251
12/08/04 04:13 PM
12/08/04 04:13 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
Being "under the law" means being under its condemnation. Those who obey the law aren't under the law. They're under grace, having been forgiven of past transgressions.

But those who continue to break the law, continue to be "under the law."

SDAs talk about observing laws because God does.

Re: Justification #11252
12/08/04 05:39 PM
12/08/04 05:39 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Yes, that's it, John, that's my whole point. We only have one choice, to choose Jesus, if we do not choose Jesus then we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. Without Jesus, we have no choice but to serve sin. We have one choice, not one chance. Repentance restores our ability to choose Jesus again and again. God cannot justify anyone who refuses to choose Jesus.
People make choices all the time that do not involve serving Jesus or not. For example, they choose what they'll have for lunch. They can choose this or that. They have freedom of choice.

When you say people do not have "freedom of choice" you are using that phrase in an unusual way. Perhaps what you mean to say is they cannot overcome sin on their own with Christ, but saying people do not have freedom of choice is an odd way of saying that if that's what you mean.

Re: Justification #11253
12/08/04 06:00 PM
12/08/04 06:00 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Boblee, yes, you are right. There are exceptions to the rule. God will save those Gentiles, who lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience, even though they never knew the law or the Lord. In judgment, God determines who is safe to save, knowing that if they had known the truth they would have embraced it faithfully. In other words, it is evident to God that they would not have refused to choose Jesus if they had known the truth about Him. Thus, they are justified.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that for those who have not explicity had the Gospel preached to them:
1) God will look not at what their life record actually was, but what it might have been had the Gospel been explicitly preached to them.
2) They did not know the Lord.
3) They did not know the law.

I think this is wrong on all 3 points. First of all, God does not have different forms of judgment for different people. There's only one standard. The law of God. Is a person's character in harmony with that law? Everyone will be judged by the "law of liberty" without exception.

When a person dies, their character is not changed, regardless of whether they have had the Gospel explicitly preached to them or not. Their actual character is what will be considered in the judgment.

Regarding knowing the Lord, everyone in heaven will know the Lord. They might not have known His name, but they have known Him.

Regarding the law, they have known the law after a fashion, as Romans 2 points out, and they will judged according to the light they had, exactly as any other person will be.

Re: Justification #11254
12/09/04 12:34 AM
12/09/04 12:34 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, Tom, I'm referring to the freedom to choose in the context of salvation. Regarding judgment, I believe certain people will be saved based on the life they would have lived had they known all truth. Otherwise, alot of Sunday keeping Christians will not be in heaven.

Re: Justification #11255
12/09/04 05:20 AM
12/09/04 05:20 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Regarding judgment, I believe certain people will be saved based on the life they would have lived had they known all truth.
I'm having trouble understanding this. Which "certain people" would this be? Aren't people saved on the basis of faith in Christ? Isn't the judgment based on people's actual characters? If a person's character is in harmony with the Law of God, then they are safe to save -- doesn't this apply without respect of persons to everybody?

Re: Justification #11256
12/09/04 06:18 AM
12/09/04 06:18 AM
D
Doug Meister  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 162
The North State - California
.

[ January 01, 2005, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Re: Justification #11257
12/09/04 02:33 PM
12/09/04 02:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, essentially I agree with you, that is, our reward in judgment is based on the traits of character we develop in this lifetime. But what about those people who did not keep the sabbath, or who ignorantly worshipped false gods and idols? Or, who held false views regarding hell?

You see, since the law is the standard by which our eternal reward is determined, none but justified and sanctified believers can be saved. The uninformed Gentiles Paul talks about in Romans 2:13-15 would not survive the test of scrutiny. In other words, even though they unwittingly obey certain facets of the law, they do not, however, obey every facet of it.

This being the case, how then does God justify rewarding them with eternal life? Are they saved on the merits of their good works, or their good characters, or their unblemished obedience, or their perfect likeness to Christ, or what?

Re: Justification #11258
12/09/04 05:00 PM
12/09/04 05:00 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Being "under the law" means being under its condemnation. Those who obey the law aren't under the law. They're under grace, having been forgiven of past transgressions.

But those who continue to break the law, continue to be "under the law."

- - - - -- Quoted from John post - - - - - - -

How could “being under the law” mean only under condemnation?

Some one is condemned by the law because he breaks the law, which mean he is under the law’s jurisdiction. And the law judge him as guilty.

So, “under the law” means: under the law jurisdiction, judgment and if you break the law, you are condemned.

Are there anyone who obey the law perfectly? Only Jesus Christ! That’s why he was the only Person ever born that received the law’s justification that brought life, he was resurrected from the death as a reward for his perfect righteousness in keeping and obeying the law.

All of Adam’s descendants who were under the law, were all guilty of breaking the law and are all under condemnation (Romans 3:19).

That’s why, Christ believers were not under the law in the real sense; they were not under the law’s jurisdiction, judgment and of course condemnation. Only those who thinks and accept the law’s jurisdiction, would be judge and condemned by the law.

How about Paul? Was he under the law?

To the Jews I became like a Jew………………To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) – 1 Corinthians 9:20

Who are those who were under the law? They are those people who must do whatever the law says, who were under the jurisdiction of the law and under it’s judgment – Romans 3:19.

Of course I follow Paul, I myself am not under the law WRITTEN ON STONE TABLETS, a law that kills, a ministry that brought death – 2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

In His love

James S

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