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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: vastergotland] #112690
05/06/09 10:18 PM
05/06/09 10:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
(västergötland)And since death is the wages of sin and Adams sin brought death to all men, even those who had not sinned like Adam had, it seems clear that original sin is a doctrine supported in scripture. As for the "how", others may speak on that.


This isn't the doctrine of original sin. Original sin has to do with guilt, not with the fact that death came as a result of Adam's sin. Under original sin, we are guilty, even if we never sinned, because we have a sinful nature.



Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Daryl] #112707
05/07/09 01:24 AM
05/07/09 01:24 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
The essence of sin in the above quote was therefore:

1 - distrust of God's goodness,
2 - disbelief of His word,
3 - rejection of His authority.

I like to say it this way:

1 - distrust God's goodness,
2 - disbelieve His word,
3 - disobey His command (or disregard His authority).


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Daryl] #112708
05/07/09 01:27 AM
05/07/09 01:27 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
Are we all deemed to be sinners before we even sin?

How can this be so?

"By ONE man's disobedience many were made sinners." Not "each man's" disobedience.

How? That man was our representative.

On the flip side:

"By ONE Man's obedience many will be made righteous." Not "each man's" obedience.

How? That Man can be our representative, if we choose.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112720
05/07/09 04:12 AM
05/07/09 04:12 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
(västergötland)And since death is the wages of sin and Adams sin brought death to all men, even those who had not sinned like Adam had, it seems clear that original sin is a doctrine supported in scripture. As for the "how", others may speak on that.


This isn't the doctrine of original sin. Original sin has to do with guilt, not with the fact that death came as a result of Adam's sin. Under original sin, we are guilty, even if we never sinned, because we have a sinful nature.

It is, to the best of my understanding, the why of the doctrine of original sin. The how then comes for instance in Augustines corruption of the eternal platonic image of man.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112728
05/07/09 12:24 PM
05/07/09 12:24 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Are we all deemed to be sinners before we even sin?

Traditionally SDA's said no. Since the 1950's some say yes, and some say no.

What SDAs? Ellen White says we are born in sin.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Rosangela] #112747
05/07/09 03:45 PM
05/07/09 03:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
Are we all deemed to be sinners before we even sin?

Traditionally SDA's said no. Since the 1950's some say yes, and some say no.

What SDAs? Ellen White says we are born in sin.


All SDAs. Ellen White didn't have a unique position on Original Sin. It's easy to see this couldn't be the case.

For example, consider the Holy Flesh controversy. They had an Original Sin position, and the SDA church battled them on that basis. If the Holy Flesh position was actually the correct one, and the SDA position was incorrect, Ellen White would have, of course, corrected them. She wouldn't allow the church to meet an incorrect teaching with unsound arguments.

Quote:
"It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer but they do not honor the truth. We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 707,708


Secondly she endorsed W. W. Prescott's sermon, "The Word Became Flesh," which is incompatible with the Original Sin idea.

Regarding the quote you mentioned, William already discussed this.

The whole idea is Ellen White was the only SDA who believed in Original Sin (except for the Holy Flesh people) is absurd on the face of it. She wrote way to much on the subject for there to have been such a gross misunderstanding. It was known what SDA's believed, and what SDA's believed Ellen White's teachings were. For example:

Quote:
Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us."

"This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness." (RH 10/2/00)


The first paragraph is from "The Desire of Ages." The second is Haskell. It's clear that Haskell understood Ellen White to be teaching that Christ took our nature, with its hereditary inclinations, a position contrary to the Original Sin idea.

At this same general time, Prescott, Jones, and Waggoner were all working to refute the Holy Flesh teachings by publishing articles attacking the Original Sin idea. E. J. Waggoner discussed this at the 1901 GC session, the main issue of which was the Holy Flesh doctrines.

That Jones and Prescott and Haskell and Waggoner were wrong about all this, while Davis and Donnel were right, and Ellen White didn't utter a peep is a position difficult to take seriously.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: vastergotland] #112748
05/07/09 03:47 PM
05/07/09 03:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
(västergötland)And since death is the wages of sin and Adams sin brought death to all men, even those who had not sinned like Adam had, it seems clear that original sin is a doctrine supported in scripture. As for the "how", others may speak on that.


This isn't the doctrine of original sin. Original sin has to do with guilt, not with the fact that death came as a result of Adam's sin. Under original sin, we are guilty, even if we never sinned, because we have a sinful nature.

It is, to the best of my understanding, the why of the doctrine of original sin. The how then comes for instance in Augustines corruption of the eternal platonic image of man.


If Original Sin meant that we all die because Adam sinned, then everyone would agree with it, as, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't any disagreement on this point. The disagreement comes over whether the guilt of Adam is passed genetically from generation to generation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112753
05/07/09 04:35 PM
05/07/09 04:35 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
(västergötland)And since death is the wages of sin and Adams sin brought death to all men, even those who had not sinned like Adam had, it seems clear that original sin is a doctrine supported in scripture. As for the "how", others may speak on that.


This isn't the doctrine of original sin. Original sin has to do with guilt, not with the fact that death came as a result of Adam's sin. Under original sin, we are guilty, even if we never sinned, because we have a sinful nature.

It is, to the best of my understanding, the why of the doctrine of original sin. The how then comes for instance in Augustines corruption of the eternal platonic image of man.


If Original Sin meant that we all die because Adam sinned, then everyone would agree with it, as, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't any disagreement on this point. The disagreement comes over whether the guilt of Adam is passed genetically from generation to generation.
And what may the difference between the two positions be?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Rosangela] #112758
05/07/09 05:39 PM
05/07/09 05:39 PM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
Are we all deemed to be sinners before we even sin?

Traditionally SDA's said no. Since the 1950's some say yes, and some say no.

What SDAs? Ellen White says we are born in sin.

Are you saying that Ellen White is basically saying that every baby born was born in sin?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Daryl] #112759
05/07/09 06:05 PM
05/07/09 06:05 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
And what may the difference between the two positions be?


In practical terms, the differences are under one position Christ could not have had hereditary tendencies to sin (genetically passed) nor could He be tempted from within, because such would imply that Christ were guilty of sin (this is the Original Sin position). The other position is that these things do not cause one to incur guilt.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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