I agree that the Ten Commandments is a transcript of God’s character, a holy, good and righteous law, a law that gives freedom from sin and condemnation for those who could keep and obey it perfectly and fulfill it demands, which in return would reward him with eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:12).

We have a perfect example of a man that never sinned his whole life, who kept and obeyed the law perfectly and fulfill it demand, which is love that seeks no self. He has proven his love by dying for us to redeem us from our sins.

But is there any other man in earth history since Adam till the cross?

From what the bible told us, there was no other man, otherwise Christ didn’t need to come and die for us (Romans 3:19,20; Galatians 2:16; 3:21).

So, if no man was just and righteous before the law, it means that they were all sinners condemned by the law to die. Therefore, Christ came to redeem those who were under the law; those who were under an obligation to keep and obey the law, under it’s judgment and under it’s condemnation (Galatians 4:4,5).

So far, I believe I have spoken the truth.

After the cross, did God ask the same obligation from Christ believers in obeying the Ten Commandments? If he did ask it, for what? Knowing that no one could be justified by the law and that they all would only come under condemnation of the law, because even though the law was intended to bring life (Romans 7:10) but practically, it brought only condemnation and death (Romans 3:19; 2 Corinthians 3:6-9). Would God keep us under the law’s condemnation forever?

Why? Why should God ask us again to come under jurisdiction of the Ten Commandments, or are we really still under the law’s jurisdiction for it goes beyond the cross?


One solid proof that Gentiles believers are not under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction, which mean is not oblige to keep and obey the Ten Commandments might be known from this verse;

Romans 3:21,22.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe;

This righteousness of God that came through faith in Jesus Christ is a substitute of the righteousness of the law that once was a requirement to obtain through obedience to the law. It is a substitution because the law could justify no man due to the weakness of the flesh (Romans 8:3).

Now, if the requirement to obtain righteousness has been changed from obedience to the law to faith in Christ, why should we take the Ten Commandments a law that has authority over us, that has the right to judge us in Judgment Day? Is it really God instruction or is the law’s jurisdiction over Christ believers goes beyond the cross?

Are those verses in John 14:15,21; Romans 13:8-10; Mathew 22:37-40; James 2:8-11, telling us that Christ’ believers must keep and obey the Ten Commandments for they were under it’s jurisdiction and that this law would stand as the standard of judgment and righteousness?

My study says none of those verses above tells us about Jesus commanded us to keep and obey the Ten Commandments, nor that this law stands as a standard of judgment and righteousness.

It is LOVE, the law’s principle that was asked from Christ’ believers to have it and to keep it in their hearts. And love is not obtained through obedience to the law, not by keeping and obeying it love would grow in our hearts, but through faith and a walk after the Spirit, the love of God would fill our hearts, replacing our self-love nature. Just then we have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); just then, we have the righteousness of God in us, which both are expressed in deeds that are in harmony with the laws in the Ten Commandments.

It is LOVE, as a principle – the principle of heavenly Kingdom that stands as our standard of judgment and righteousness. Those who has this love in their hearts are FIT and WELCOME to enter heaven and live there for eternity, those who hasn’t are rejected, their hearts remain selfish no matter how hard they try to keep and obey the law perfectly.

Why is it LOVE that stands as the standard of judgment and righteousness? Because many who are FIT for heaven and live there for eternity, are not FIT and would pass the law’s judgment if the Ten Commandments is the standard of judgment and righteousness. Because many of them has not the deeds of the law, many of them were non Sabbath keepers, and the most important thing is that all who were under the law’s jurisdiction were under the law’s condemnation as mentioned in Roman 3:19, where only Christ, the Son of Man was an exception.

Now, if we say that “in Christ there is no condemnation”, then the same must be applied to all those great saints, patriarch and prophets till the cross because they too have put their faith “in Christ.” But, in fact they all were guilty before the law and were under condemnation for Christ came to redeem them.

But, don’t miss understand me. Even though this is my idea, but I didn’t say that being not under the law’s jurisdiction I have the liberty to sin and still go to heaven. On the contrary, I believe that when the love of God rules in our hearts, we would have deeds that is in harmony with every single law in the Ten Commandments, including the 4th commandment.

I just do not like the idea that the Ten Commandments is the standard of judgment and righteousness, and my study proof it. There is a great danger of becoming legalistic if we accept the law as God’s standard of judgment and righteousness, and I have seen it all around me.

We are saved by the grace of God, through redemption and through justification by faith, which means, it is all his love that forgives our sins without standing against the claim of the law for our transgression (s) because we are not under jurisdiction of the law.

Love is not the same as the Ten Commandments; LOVE is not = Ten Commandments.

Love is the principle of the Ten Commandments, love fulfilled the demands of the Ten Commandments, but perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments could not fulfill the whole aspect of love. Only when love ruled and filled our heart we may have deeds that are in harmony with every single law in the Ten Commandments, but not the contrary, not by perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments love may grow in our hearts.

LOVE forgives, the LAW condemns!

This is my idea, which I think doesn’t contradict the Gospel of Christ. If I’m wrong, I am happy to find the truth.

In His love

James S

James, do you think the following quotes teach that the law of God merely condemns, that it is completely divorced from the love of God?

1BC 1105
The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined (MS 41, 1896). {1BC 1105.1}

The ten holy precepts spoken by Christ upon Sinai's mount were the revelation of the character of God, and made known to the world the fact that He had jurisdiction over the whole human heritage. That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO, and Live (Letter 89, 1898). {1BC 1105.2}

HP 144
There is full assurance of hope in believing every word of Christ, believing in Him, being united to Him by living faith. When this is his experience, the human being is no longer under the law, for the law no longer condemns his course of action. . . . {HP 144.4}

RC 55
But while Christ saves the sinner, He does not do away with the law which condemns the sinner....The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. {RC 55.4}

So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. We must come to Christ for pardon. He will take our guilt upon His own soul, and will justify us before God. And not only will He free us from sin, but He will give us power to render obedience to God's will. . . . {RC 55.5}

1SM 371
The law is to be presented to its transgressors, not as something apart from God, but rather as an exponent of His mind and character. As the sunlight cannot be separated from the sun, so God's law cannot be rightly presented to man apart from the divine Author. The messenger should be able to say, "In the law is God's will; come, see for yourselves that the law is what Paul declared it to be--'holy, and just, and good.' "It reproves sin, it condemns the sinner, but it shows him his need of Christ, with whom is plenteous mercy and goodness and truth. Though the law cannot remit the penalty for sin, but charges the sinner with all his debt, Christ has promised abundant pardon to all who repent, and believe in His mercy. The love of God is extended in abundance to the repenting, believing soul. The brand of sin upon the soul can be effaced only through the blood of the atoning Sacrifice. No less an offering was required than the sacrifice of Him who was equal with the Father. The work of Christ--His life, humiliation, death, and intercession for lost man--magnifies the law, and makes it honorable. {1SM 371.1}

RC 55
But while Christ saves the sinner, He does not do away with the law which condemns the sinner....The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. {RC 55.4}

So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. We must come to Christ for pardon. He will take our guilt upon His own soul, and will justify us before God. And not only will He free us from sin, but He will give us power to render obedience to God's will. . . . {RC 55.5}

- - - - - - - Quoted from Mike post - - - - - -

It is really weird and doesn’t make sense to me, the law condemns but Christ believers must keep and obey the law. Why? What for?

Why should we keep and obey and be under jurisdiction of a law written on stone tablets that could only condemn us, kill us. A ministration of condemnation, a ministration of death, which Paul said no longer exist for it has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:6-11). Therefore, Paul was no longer under the law, the same as Christ believers should be, at least me.

Is EGW teaching not against the Gospel of Christ????

In His love

James S

James, I'm glad you see the difference between what you're saying about the law and what Sister White says about it. Now, we have to decide who is right - James Saptenno or Ellen White. Who is in agreement with the Bible? You and Sister White both believe and teach that the Holy Spirit empowers born again believers to live in harmony with the precepts and principles of the ten commandments. I agree. But...

1. You believe born again believers are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law, but she says the entire human race is, and has been, since the beginning of time.

2. You believe born again believers are no longer obligated to obey the law, but she believes they, and the entire human race, are.

3. You believe born again believers are no longer under the condemnation of the law because they are no longer under its jurisdiction, but she says it's because their past sins are pardoned AND because Holy Spirit empowers them to obey the law, to live in harmony with it. The law only condemns law breakers, not law keepers.

Very clearly stated, Mike! I agree with you.

So, who is right and who is wrong?

But please prove it with the bible only and not with what EGW said because no denomination in the world believe in EGW teaching’s except SDA’s. Some denomination believe that EGW is the false prophet, therefore, how could I defend SDA’s doctrine against a counter attack when only EGW teaching is my defense. I must defend our doctrine with the bible only.

In His love

James S

Meanwhile….

3. You believe born again believers are no longer under the condemnation of the law because they are no longer under its jurisdiction, but she says it's because their past sins are pardoned AND because Holy Spirit empowers them to obey the law, to live in harmony with it. The law only condemns law breakers, not law keepers.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - --

Now, WHEN is a born again believer NOT a law breaker? A year ago? Now? Or next year?

Was there any person before the cross not a law breaker? No, they were all law breakers (Romans 3:19); No one was justified by the law unto life (Romans 3:20); therefore Christ must come to redeem them (Galatians 4:5).

Would there be any person after the cross not a law breaker? Would there be any person after the cross justified by the law unto life for his perfect obedience? No, No one (Galatians 2:16), because they would be justified by their faith in Christ and not by their works of the law, which is not perfect; for if their obedience is perfect, the law would justify them unto life (Galatians 3:11,12) and Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21).

If LOVE = the Ten Commandments, then vice versa; the Ten Commandments = LOVE, then all Pharisees including Saul (Paul) would be justified by the law unto life and Christ would never be born as a baby on earth.

I mean, LOVE is not = the Ten Commandments, because those who has love in their hearts fulfill the law demands, but those who kept the law perfectly, he might have no love to his neighbors. But if LOVE = the Ten Commandments, then those who kept the Ten Commandments has love to his neighbors and to God, the law would justify him all right and rewarded him with life.

In His love

James S.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11.

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The letter killeth; Ten Commandments is a law that kills.
Ministration of death, written and engraved in stones; the Ten Commandments is a ministry of death, keeping it and be under it’s jurisdiction only brought death to us.
Ministration of condemnation; The Ten Commandments is a ministry of condemnation, keeping it and be under it’s jurisdiction only lead us to condemnation.

The Spirit gives life; walking after the Spirit gives us life.
Ministration of the Spirit is ministration of righteousness; because those who walks after the Spirit would be made righteous by the Spirit that works in them to will and to do.

Ministration of the Spirit is much more glorious than the ministration of condemnation that killed; therefore, the Ten Commandments had been done away with (2 Corinthians 3:11).

What more would I say to convince my self?? Should I believe in what EGW said? Should I use her writings to defense our doctrine against non SDA’s?

In His love

James S

James, for those who do believe Sister White is a true prophet and messenger of the Lord, they view her insights as inspired by God, the same is true of Peter, Paul and Matthew. They believe she never contradicts the Bible, thus, her insights are in harmony with the word of God.

They do not have to choose between her and the others because they believe all of them are inspired by the same Holy Spirit. But when you appear to contradict Sister White they do not have to wonder who is right - you or her. The answer is obvious.

Okay, so you cannot quote Sister White when studying the law with non-Adventists. No problem. Remember, Paul, and the others, say exactly the same thing Sister White said about the law and salvation. Therefore, share those conclusions with them.

Most people agree with the idea that Jesus pardons and empowers born again Christians, and that the law no longer condemns them. The law condemns law breakers, not that law keeping saves them. Rather, we are able to keep the law because we are saved.

When do born again believers stop breaking the law? That's a good question. Here is where you'll find that most people do not agree. No doubt you have found this to be true. There are as many different answers to this question as there are noses in the world.

I believe born again believers are dead to sin and awake to righteousness the moment they experience the miracle of rebirth. So long as they are connected to Christ, so long as they are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - they do not and cannot commit a known sin. The promises of perfection are true and apply providing they meet the above mentioned criteria.

In order to commit a known sin, they must first take their eyes off Jesus, next they must resurrect the mind of the old man, and then all they can do is sin. But the gift of repentance empowers them to confess and forsake their sin, and it gives God the legal right to pardon them, and to restore the relationship their sin severed, to restore them back to the mind of the new man.

It's very easy to show from Scripture that the law must be kept by those who would enter into heaven. Perhaps I'll present a few arguments tomorrow. But I'm curious, James, where you're coming from. Are you an SDA? Do you believe the writings of EGW are inspired?