To go to heaven a person needs to have a character in harmony with the principles of God's government. This requires grace for all fallen humans, whether infants or not.



They're not born lost. Both Scripture and the SOP make this clear.





If a baby is born with a Savior, then clearly it's not born lost.

Regarding post #112782, eternal death takes place as a result of one's own choice, not Adam's. Physical death comes upon us because of Adam's choice.

The question is, where can you substantiate this in scripture? How long does this situation of salvation by proxy linger?

Is anyone born with a character in harmony with God's principles? If not, doesn't that mean that no baby, of itself, is in harmony with God's principles?

Born with a Savior - I can live with that. If one was born without a Savior, is he lost? If someone needs a Savior, doesn't that mean that he needs to be saved?

Born needing a Savior - can you live with that?

A character is developed. There's not a lot of revelation on this subject. 3SM has some things, as I recall. I can share what makes sense to me.

If a baby would develop a character in harmony with the principles of heaven, God will take that child to heaven. In general, God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there.

Some babies would not be able to develop such a character. 3SM goes into the reasons why.



We all have sinful natures. We all need the grace of God. I'm not sure what you're asking here.



Good! Without a Savior, we couldn't live physically. DA 660 tells us, "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life." So even the wicked have a Savior. He's referred to as "The Savior of the world" or "The Savior of every man" (depending on the translation) a number of times. Of course, this isn't the same thing as *accepting* Christ as a personal Savior, so eternal life is not conferred through this.



This isn't possible. One cannot even exist without a Savior.



No. One could already be saved, but this doesn't imply one doesn't need a Savior.



Yes. We all need a Savior, even if we are saved.

Tom, I don't know how many reasons you have already given for a baby needing a Savior, but you outdid yourself in that one.
If their salvation is dependent upon the faith of their parents, it's obvious that they need salvation in the first place. Why do they need salvation? Salvation from what?

Do babies need the grace of God because they have sinful natures? Did Christ need the grace of God? What do you do with the statement that those who have never sinned do not need grace?


Is your contention that babies need a Savior but they don't need to be saved?

The paradox of retaining the biblical truth that there is not one human who is righteous, not one who seeks God, all being turned aside. And at the same time trying to throw out original sin.
Sometimes people invent the wheel only to find out that it has the earliest imaginable history.

I usually say simply, that through Adam we received sin and the wages that come from it and that is why we die, even the innocents. From the second Adam, Jesus Christ we receive eternal life.

It seems again you're not understanding what Original Sin is. It is not having a sinful nature, which seems to be your thinking.

Yes, we all have sinned, and our sinful nature has played a hand in this. But his has nothing to do with Original Sin! Original Sin has to do with the idea that we incur *guilt* simply by having a sinful nature *irregardless of whether we sin or not*.

Even if a person never sinned, by virtue of having a sinful nature, he would still be guilty! I think this point is being missed.

From sin of course. As Waggoner stated, "sin is in every fiber of our being by nature." All human beings need grace. Babies are dependent upon their parents in this regard. 3SM discusses this.



No. If you read the following question by Arnold and my response to that in the post from which this quote was taken, my meaning should be clear.