Law and condemnation? Why do we associate law with condemnation? The scriptures do not. There is no scripture that talks about the 'condemnation of the law'. It was not EW intention to make us think that the law condemns either. Please note her explanation in picture form. Did you ever see a mirror condemn anyone? I didn't. The mirror is not a person hence it cannot condemn anyone. Same with the Law; it is not a person and cannot condemn. Only a person can condemn.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

So we see it is not the 'good' that worketh death, but sin, using the law (that which is good) unlawfully.

If there is a condemnation, it comes from the person in front of the mirror, or an accuser. So we can destroy the mirror or get rid of the accuser, but that does not change the sin in the one before what used to be the mirror.

We need to realize that the enemy is sin.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Shall we then get rid of the light so that there would be no condemnation? This light = 'the life that is in Christ'. That would never do away with condemnation because Christ lives.

What does away with condemnation?

When men turn away from loving darkness, to loving the light, there will be no more condemnation. Then there is salvation, and sin shall not have dominion over you.

Shalom

Great points, John.

I especially liked the point that removing the acuser (aka "breaking the mirror") wouldn't do any good.

God's forgivenss cannot be tantamount to overlooking sin, or the problem of sin, which is that sin causes death, will remain. God must remove sin from the human heart.

Thanks Tom,

Just want to stress the difference between the law and the accuser. They are not one and the same.

The accuser is the enemy of souls (a kin to sin within) that uses the law unlawfully.
The law is good and holy. It does not accuse/condemn anyone. It is unto life.

Shalom

Right John. Also not only does the law not condemn, but neither does God. Jesus said the Father would judge no one, and neither would He. To the woman caught in adultery, Christ said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more" and when we've seen Christ, we've seen the Father.

Sin brings its own condemnation. We see an example of this in the behavior of Adam and Eve. They ran away in fear of God after they sinned, but God was not condemning them. They were condemned by their own consciences.

Sin is terrible in its power, and it's only as we contemplate the cross that we begin to get some inkling of its true nature.

Amen Tom

Shalom

Thanks for your comments John. Good to hear from you. I'd like to hear more on the idea that the law does not condemn. That's a new thought to me.

Doesn't it say something about this in I John. It suggests or implies that our hearts are what condemn us, sometimes justifiably and sometimes falsely. For those cases where our hearts condemn us falsely, the Bible promises that God is 'greater than our hearts'.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk after the Spirit. But the converse is implied - there is condemnation for those who do not walk after the Spirit. Where does that condemnation originate? From ourselves and the devil? Do you think the law has no role in educating our conscience about when we should sense condemnation?

The law enlightens the conscience doesn't it? The conscience in turn condemns when it is violated. What do you think?

Hi Mark, nice to hear from you too. Good thoughts.

"Where does that condemnation originate?"

It comes from within us,it comes from our judgment and that is the only place it can come from. No one else can condemn us – unless there is an echoing condemnation within. This is why Christ said "the prince of this world cometh but in me he finds nothing."

quote:

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The law enlightens the conscience doesn't it? The conscience in turn condemns when it is violated. What do you think?

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Light, Law or knowledge does not condemn. It enobles and makes wise. Yet it is true that many feel condemned when they are 'discovered'. That is because they love darkness rather than light. Conscience is a true witness and likewise does not condemn.

Our judgment is where condemnation comes. Judgment is a direct result of the righteousness that is held by the person judging.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Condemnation comes from "judgment" which is result of "sin". "Sin" is the antitype of righteousness. This is important to realise. Thus sin and righteousness is interchangable depending on whose view.

In most peoples' mind the judment in the above verse is thought to be God's. However that is not the case. God didn't sin. God's judgment didn't turn to condemnation, but as we see, the second half of that verse tells us that 'his judgment' which is the result of 'his righteousness' results in justification. It is the judgment of "all men" that turned to condemnation.

All our judgment is based on "our righteousness" which being under the domain of sin is the antitype of God's righteousness. Sin therefore perverts the judgment of the Sinner to condemnation. The nature of our righteousness is sin.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? Not by God. (God forbid) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Verse 10 and 11 say that the word of God was ordained to life but "Sin" through deception took that word changed its meaning and purpose to work death in me. So did God intend it for death? No. But sin, works condemnation/death in me by using God's word. Thus sin is exposed to be the source of death.

We always judge according to "our righteousness = sin". Differently we cannot do, unless by faith we subject our judgment to God's judgment.

Lets look at the scripture again,
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

So you see the good = "our righteousness" = what we think is good. When we set out to do it we find we end up doing evil, because we have been deceived and do not see the nature of "our righteousness" for what it is, namely sin. So there is a law that whenever I do "my own righteousness" evil is present with me. Though I see the word of God as being right and good, there is a law (righteousness) within me that turns that word and produces death and condemnation in me.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

What is neccessary? It is neccessary that we cease from 'our righteousness' and by faith receive 'God's righteousness'.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which is of the faith of Jesus.

We trust by sinful nature our righteousness. When we realise that what we think as right is at enmity with God, and that it works death and condemnation in us. When we realise that God is for us and not against us. When we realise that God's judgment is justification and life, and we by faith accept receive his judgment, his righteousness. Then it is that we are living by his spirit.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Please note that the comforter deals with these three: 'sin', 'righteousess' and 'judgment'.

As you see, sin is the antitype of righteousness and therefore it is interchangable depending on whose view it is. Judgment is the result of either. But, oh, such a different judgment depending on the nature of the righteousness.

So much for now. We can drill down deeper in these thoughts.

Shalom

John B. wrote,

quote:

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Condemnation comes from "judgment" which is result of "sin". "Sin" is the antitype of righteousness. This is important to realise. Thus sin and righteousness is interchangable depending on whose view.

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That sounds kinda dangerous to me. Sin is not the 'antitype' of righteousness; it's the 'antithesis' maybe. The opposite.

I don't understand how two polar opposites could possibly be interchangeable. That's like saying light and darkness can be interchangeable --

And this teaching that the law doesn't condemn is plainly contradictory to Inspiration. A few examples:

"The apostle exhorts Christians, 'Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.' Compare your character with the mirror of God's word, see if that law condemns you. If so, wash your robe of character in the blood of the Lamb."
{RH 12-06-81 para. 18}

"Why should the apostles teach repentance toward God? -- Because the sinner is in trouble with the Father. He has transgressed the law; he must see his sin, and repent. What is his next work? -- To look to Jesus, whose blood alone can cleanse from all sin. Faith in Christ is necessary; for there is no saving quality in law. The law condemns, but it cannot pardon the transgressor. The sinner must depend on the merits of the blood of Christ."
{ST 08-05-86 para. 2}

"The justice of God was seen in that He gave Christ to die to save man, for the law condemned man to death; but the righteousness of Christ was brought in and imputed to him that he might be brought back to his loyalty to God."
{1888 Mtl. p. 127 para. 1}

"Jesus has given this invitation, 'Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' In coming to Jesus, we reveal our faith. The law condemns the sinner, and by this condemnation he is led to see the necessity of a Saviour. He seeks refuge in Jesus, and the Son is glorified and exalted as the Redeemer of the world; He is the sinner's substitute and surety."
{ST 06-09-90 para. 11}

A search of the SOP using the terms "law" and "condemn" turns up hundreds more like these.

Romans 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Judgment came upon all by the offense of one; what was that offense? A sin. What is sin? The transgression of the law. So it is that law which condemns.

"The broken law of God demanded the life of the transgressor."
{GC 418.1}

If we say we're condemned only by our consciences, we're setting ourselves up to take the place of God, the Author of that Law which condemns sin.

To say that the law condemns sin is a figure of speech. The law is not alive; it cannot literally condemn. Condemnation is something only a sentient being can do.

Jesus said the Father would not judge, but committed all judgment to Him. Jesus said He would also not judge, but His words would do the judging.

In Great Controversy is laid out the scene where each of those in the Second Resurrection see where they have gone astray. Each of their sins are made plain. Without the grace of God, they are unable to bear that knowledge.

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that if we had to bear the guilt of our own sin, it would crush us. The wicked have the luxury of not having to face the full reality of their sin during this life, but at some point they will have to face it.

In Christ, we can face our sin, but apart from Him, we cannot. Left to ourselves, it is death to us.

Condemnation comes from "judgment" which is result of "sin". "Sin" is the antitype of righteousness. This is important to realise. Thus sin and righteousness is interchangeable depending on whose view.

John (Tie)? said,

quote:

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That sounds kinda dangerous to me. Sin is not the 'antitype' of righteousness; it's the 'antithesis' maybe. The opposite. I don't understand how two polar opposites could possibly be interchangeable. That's like saying light and darkness can be interchangeable.

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You are very right. It is awful dangerous. It is deadly. That is why God wants to save us from it.
I am not certain if I have expressed it just right. Sin is antirighteousness, in the same sense as antichrist. As antichrist takes the place of Christ, so likewise sin takes the place of righteousness in the sinner. But as those that serve antichrist do not realise it, so likewise the sinner does not recognize that his righteousness is sin.

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Of course if we recognised something for what it really is, that would solve half the problem. But Rom 7:11 Says: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Now where there is deception there is a lack of realisation of the error. You see here sin uses righteousness (commandment) to deceive. And in that state of deceived righteousness it works death. So there is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

This is why Paul says.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Also he brings out
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So we see how sin has hidden in sinner's righteousness creating an antitype of righteousness or antirighteousness, which however is recognized by the sinner as righteousness.

In this discussion we are identifying sources, and so we see two opposites, in order that we may understand what is from who. Most people have a 'mix' of information. There is the natural fallen man's antirighteousness, and there is the influence of the spirit of God. But these two are contrary one to another.