I re-read both posts you've made, however, I don't see it. Could you re-post it and underline what we might be saying of the same thing?

So how are we to become to the point of absolute love towards God and our fellowman?

As I said before, Jesus wasn't tempted to do all the same things that we are either. He had no temptation to spend money on thrill rides like Six Flags or Disneyland, He had no temptation to indulge in computer games, nor to watch television. You are misinterpreting the term "all points."

If Jesus were tempted to overeat, would it truly matter to you where this temptation arose? The fact that He was tempted suffices for the Biblical record.


Yes. It reminds me of the story of the scapegoat. I think this was to be symbolic. And I do not believe that He bore the entire weight of the world's guilt at that point--not until the cross.


I see that Rosangela brought us a nice quote from Mrs. White to say this very thing.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In response to #112913, I was reminded of Sermon #13 by A. T. Jones in the 1895 GC session (excerpts from sermon follows).

Now the fourteenth verse of the fourth chapter of Hebrews:

Seeing then that we have a great high priest that is passed into the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are.

He could not have been tempted in all points like as I am if He were not in all points like as I am to start with. Therefore it behooved Him to be made in all points like me, if He is going to help me where I need help. I know that right there is where I need it. And oh, I know it is right there where I get it. Thank the Lord! There is where Christ stands and there is my help...

But I say again, He cannot be tempted in all points like as I am unless He was in all points like I am to start with. He could not feel as I do unless He is where I am and as I am. In other words, He could not be tempted in all points as I am and feel as I feel unless He was just myself over again. The word of God says: "In all points like as we are."

Let us study this further. There are things that will tempt you strongly that will draw hard on you, that are no more to me than a zephyr in a summer day. Something will draw hard on me, even to my overthrowing, that would not affect you at all. What strongly tempts one may not affect another. Then, in order to help me, Jesus must be where He can feel what I feel and be tempted in all points where I could be tempted with any power at all. What strongly tempts one may not affect another. Then, in order to help me, Jesus must be where He can feel what I feel and be tempted in all points where I could be tempted with any power at all. But as things that tempt me may not affect you at all and things that affect you may not affect me, Christ has to stand where you and I both are, so as to meet all the temptations of both. He must feel all those which you meet that do not affect me and also all those which I meet that do not affect you. He has to take the place of both of us. That is so.

Then there is the other man. There are things that tempt him to his overthrow that do not affect you or me either. Then Jesus had to take all the feelings and nature of myself, of yourself, and of the other man also, so that He could be tempted in all points like as I am and in all points like as you are and in all points like as the other man is. But when you and I and the other man are taken in Him, how many does that embrace? That takes the whole human race.

And this is exactly the truth. Christ was in the place and He had the nature of the whole human race. And in Him meet all the weaknesses of mankind, so that every man on earth who can be tempted at all finds in Jesus Christ power against temptation. For every soul there is in Jesus Christ victory against all temptation and relief from the power of it. That is the truth.

Thus Satan had to try, and he did try, Jesus upon all the points that he ever had to try me upon and upon all the points that he ever had to try you upon and also upon all the points that he would have to try the other man upon. Consequently he had to try Jesus upon every point upon which it is possible for a temptation to rise in any man of the human race.

Satan is the author of all temptation, and he had to try Jesus upon every point upon which it is possible for Satan himself to raise a temptation. And in all he failed all the time. Thank the Lord!

More than that: Satan not only had to try Jesus upon all the points where he has ever had to try me, but he had to try Jesus with a good deal more power than he ever had to exert upon me. He never had to try very hard nor use very much of his power in temptation to get me to yield. But taking the same points upon which Satan has ever tried me in which he got me to sin or would ever have to try to get me to sin, he had to try Jesus on those same points a good deal harder than he ever did to get me to sin. He had to try him with all the power of temptation that he possibly knows--that is, the devil I mean--and failed. Thank the Lord! So in Christ I am free.

He had to try Jesus in all points where he ever tempted or ever can tempt you and he had to try Him with all the power that he knows, and he failed again. Thank the Lord! So you are free in Christ. He had also to try Jesus upon every point that affects the other man with all his Satanic power also, and still he failed. Thank the Lord! And in Christ the other man is free.

Therefore he had to try Jesus upon every point that ever the human could be tried upon and failed. He had to try Jesus with all the knowledge that he has and all the cunning that he knows and failed. And he had to try Jesus with all his might upon each particular point, and still he failed.

Then there is a threefold--yes, a complete--failure on the devil's part all around., In the presence of Christ, Satan is absolutely conquered, and in Christ we are conquerors of Satan. Jesus said, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." In Christ, then, we escape him. In Christ we meet in Satan a completely conquered and a completely exhausted enemy. (end of excerpt)

Here's an excerpt from another one:

The mystery of God is not God manifest in sinless flesh. There is mystery about God being manifest in sinless flesh; that is natural enough. Is not God Himself sinless? Is there then any room for wonder that God could manifest Himself through or in sinless flesh? Is there any mystery as to God's manifesting His power and His righteous glory through Gabriel or through the bright seraphim or the cherubim? No. That is natural enough. But the wonder is that God can do that through and in sinful flesh. That is the mystery of God. God manifest in sinful flesh.

In Jesus Christ as He was in sinful flesh, God has demonstrated before the universe that He can so take possession of sinful flesh as to manifest His own presence, His power, and His glory, instead of sin manifesting itself. And all that the Son asks of any man in order to accomplish this in Him is that the man will let the Lord have Him as the Lord Jesus did.

Jesus said, "I will put my trust in Him." And in that trust Christ brought to every one the divine faith by which we can put our trust in Him. And when we do so separate from the world and put our sole trust in Him, then God will so take us and so use us that our sinful selves shall not appear to influence or affect anybody, but God will manifest His righteous self, His glory, before men, in spite of all ourselves and our sinfulness. That is the truth. And that is the mystery of God, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." God manifest in sinful flesh.

Upon this point, also, Satan discourages many. To the believing sinner Satan says: You are too sinful to count yourself a Christian. God cannot have anything to do with you. Look at yourself. You know you are good for nothing. Satan has discouraged us thousands of times with that kind of argument.

But God has wrought out an argument that puts this plea of Satan all to shame, for Jesus came and became ourselves--"sinful" as we are, laden with the sins of the world--far more sins than there are upon me. And in Him, laden with ten thousand times more sins than ever were upon me, God has demonstrated that with one so "sinful" as that, He will come and live a whole lifetime and manifest Himself and His righteousness in spite of all the sinfulness and in spite of the devil. God laid help upon One who is mighty, and that help reaches us. Thank the Lord.
(end of excerpt)

This was from #15 (1895 GCB, A.T.Jones)

this isnt quite dealing with the points you or i are making but i was very impressed with this persons experience. it is only a part of her testimony and i wanted to share it.

Tom,

Jones’ view does not make sense. Nobody can be exposed to every possible form of temptation of all times, nor is this necessary. Christ was exposed to the strongest temptations a human being can bear in each area (appetite being the strongest one of all), and by overcoming in our behalf, He gave us power to resist any temptation by which we will be assailed in all three areas. That was all that was necessary, and that was what was accomplished.

Satan assailed Christ with his strongest temptations in the wilderness. {BEcho, December 1, 1893 par. 1}

The Son of God saw that man could not of himself overcome this powerful temptation [indulgence of appetite]. . . . He came to earth to unite His divine power with our human efforts, that through the strength and moral power which He imparts, we might overcome in our own behalf. Oh! what matchless condescension for the King of glory to come down to this world to endure the pangs of hunger and the fierce temptations of a wily foe, that He might gain an infinite victory for man. {HP 194.4}

After His baptism the Son of God entered the dreary wilderness, there to be tempted by the devil. For nearly six weeks He endured the agonies of hunger. . . . He realized the power of appetite upon man; and in behalf of sinful man, He bore the closest test possible upon that point. Here a victory was gained which few can appreciate. The controlling power of depraved appetite and the grievous sin of indulging it can only be understood by the length of the fast which our Saviour endured that He might break its power. {HP 194.2}

It was not the gnawing pangs of hunger alone which made the sufferings of our Redeemer so inexpressibly severe. It was the sense of guilt which had resulted from the indulgence of appetite that had brought such terrible woe into the world, which pressed so heavily upon His divine soul. {HP 194.5}

With man's nature, and the terrible weight of his sins pressing upon Him, our Redeemer withstood the power of Satan upon this great leading temptation, which imperils the souls of men. If man should overcome this temptation [appetite], he could conquer on every other point. {HP 194.6}

These were real temptations, no pretense. Christ "suffered being tempted" (Heb. 2:18). Angels of heaven were on the scene on that occasion, and kept the standard uplifted, that Satan should not exceed his bounds and overpower the human nature of Christ. ... The human family have all the help that Christ had in their conflicts with Satan. They need not be overcome. They may be more than conquerors through Him who has loved them and given His life for them. ... The Son of God in His humanity wrestled with the very same fierce, apparently overwhelming temptations that assail men-- temptations to indulgence of appetite, to presumptuous venturing where God has not led them, and to the worship of the god of this world, to sacrifice an eternity of bliss for the fascinating pleasures of this life. Everyone will be tempted, but the Word declares that we shall not be tempted above our ability to bear. We may resist and defeat the wily foe. {1SM 94.2, 95.3}

I would say it isn't possible without a great measure of the Holy Spirit, without letting Him take entire control of our lives. But some people reached this experience. Enoch, for sure. Others I think may have reached it are Elijah, Elisha, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, Job, Paul, John, etc.

Perhaps it just doesn't make sense to you. What Jones said makes sense to me, as well as to many others.

Here's some more of Jones. He starts out by quoting from "The Desire of Ages," and then comments:

In order to carry out the great work of redemption, the Redeemer must take the place of fallen man. Burdened with the sins of the world, he must go over the ground where Adam stumbled. He must take up the work just where Adam failed, and endure a test of the same character, but infinitely more severe than that which had vanquished him. It is impossible for man fully to comprehend Satan's temptations to our Saviour. Every enticement to evil which men find so difficult to resist, was brought to bear upon the Son of God in as much greater degree as his character was superior to that of fallen man.

When Adam was assailed by the tempter, he was without the taint of sin. He stood before God in the strength of perfect manhood, all the organs and faculties of his being fully developed and harmoniously balanced; and he was surrounded with things of beauty, and communed daily with the holy angels. What a contrast to this perfect being did the second Adam present, as he entered the desolate wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and deteriorating in moral worth; and in order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he stood. He assumed human nature, bearing the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He humiliated himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that he might sympathize with man and rescue him from the degradation into which sin had plunged him.

"For it became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." Heb. 2:10. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." Heb. 5:9. "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted." Heb. 2:17, 18. "We have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15.

It is true that Christ at one time said of himself, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." John 14:30. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But he could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. Jesus did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought could he be brought to the power of Satan's temptations. Yet it is written of Christ that he was tempted in all points like as we are. Many hold that from the nature of Christ is was impossible for Satan's temptations to weaken or overthrow him. Then Christ could not have been placed in Adam's position, to go over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell; he could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. Unless he was placed in a position as trying as that in which Adam stood, he could not redeem Adam's failure. If man has in any sense a more trying conflict to endure than had Christ, then Christ is not able to succor him when tempted. Christ took humanity with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man with the possibility of yielding to temptation, and he relied upon divine power to keep him.

The union of the divine with the human is one of the most mysterious, as well as the most precious, truths of the plan of redemption. It is of this that Paul speaks when he says, "Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh." 1 Tim. 3:16. While it is impossible for finite minds fully to grasp this great truth or fathom its significance, we may learn from it lessons of vital importance to us in our struggles against temptation. Christ came to the world to bring divine power to humanity, to make man a partaker of the divine nature.

You see, we are on firm ground all the way, so that when it is said that he took our flesh but still was not a partaker of our passions, it is all straight; it is all correct, because His divine mind never consented to sin. And that mind is brought to us by the Holy Spirit that is freely given unto us.

"We know that the Son of God has come, and hath given us a mind" and "we have the mind of Christ." "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."

Here Jones speaks of the three categories that have been brought up:



Here's some more from this same sermon, #18:

Let us look at that a little further. When Christ had our human nature, He was there in His divine self but didn't manifest any of His divine self in that place. What did He do with His divine self in our flesh when He became ourselves? His divine self was always kept back--emptied--in order that our evil, satanic selves might be kept back--emptied. Now in the flesh He Himself did nothing. He says: "Of mine own self I can do nothing." He was there all the time. His own divine self, who made the heavens, was there all the time. But from beginning to end He Himself did nothing. Himself was kept back; He was emptied. Who, then did that which was done in Him? The Father that dwelleth in Me, "He doeth the works, He speaks the worlds"--Then who was it that opposed the power of temptation in Him in our flesh? The Father. It was the Father who kept Him from sinning. He was "kept by the power of God" as we are to be "kept by the power of God." 1 Peter 1:5.

He was our sinful selves in the flesh, and here were all these tendencies to sin being stirred up in His flesh to get Him to consent to sin. But He Himself did not keep Himself from sinning. To have done so would have been Himself manifesting Himself against the power of Satan, and this would have destroyed the plan of salvation, even though He had not sinned. And though at the cross the words were said in mockery, they were literally true: "He saved others; Himself He cannot save." Therefore He kept Himself entirely out. He emptied Himself, and by His keeping Himself back, that gave the Father an opportunity to come in and work against the sinful flesh and save Him and save us in Him.

Sinners are separated from God, and God wants to come back to the very place from which sin has driven Him in human flesh. He could not come to us, in ourselves, for we could not bear His presence. Therefore Christ came in our flesh and the Father dwelt with Him. He could bear the presence of God in its fullness, and so God could dwell with Him in His fullness and this could bring the fullness of God to us in our flesh.

Christ came in that sinful flesh but did not do anything of Himself against the temptation and the power of sin in the flesh. He emptied Himself and the Father worked in human flesh against the power of sin and kept Him from sinning.

Now it is written of the Christian: "Ye are kept by the power of God through faith." That is done in Christ. We yield to Christ; Christ abides in us, giving us His mind. That mind of Christ enables our wicked self to be in the background. The mind of Christ--"let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus"--puts our wicked selves beneath and keeps ourselves back and keeps us from asserting ourselves, for any manifestation of ourself is of itself sin. When the mind of Christ puts ourselves beneath, that gives the Father a chance to work with us and keep us from sinning. And thus God "worketh in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Thus it is always the Father and Christ and ourselves. It is the Father manifested in us through Christ, and in Christ. The mind of Christ empties us of our sinful selves and keeps us from asserting ourselves in order that God, the Father, may join Himself to us and work against the power of sin and keep us from sinning. Thus Christ "is our peace, who hath made both [God and us] one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity...for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." So it is always the Father and Christ and we; we, the sinners; God the sinless; Christ joining the sinless One to the sinful one and in Himself abolishing the enmity, emptying self in us, in order that God and we may be one, and thus make one new man, so making peace. And thus the peace of God which passeth all understanding shall keep your hearts and minds through, or in, Jesus Christ.

Is it not a most blessed thing that the Lord Jesus has done that for us and so takes up His abode in us and so settles that question that there can be no more doubt that the Father will keep us from sinning than there is that He has kept Him from sinning already? No more doubt; because when Christ is there, He is there for the purpose of emptying self in us. And when ourselves are gone, will it be any very great difficulty for the Father to manifest Himself? When ourselves are kept from asserting ourselves there will be no difficulty for God to assert Himself in our flesh. That is the mystery of God: "Christ in you, the hope of glory." God manifest in the flesh. It is not simply Christ manifest in the flesh; it is God manifest in the flesh. For when Jesus came in the world Himself, it was not Christ manifest in the flesh; it was God manifest in the flesh, for "he that hath seen me, hath seen the Father."

Christ emptied Himself in order that God might be manifest in the flesh, in sinful flesh, and when He comes to us and dwells in us, upon our choice, bringing to us that divine mind of His which is the mind that empties self wherever it goes, wherever it can find an entrance, wherever it can find any place to act, the mind of Christ is the emptying of self, is the abolishing of self, the destruction of self, the annihilation of self. Therefore, when by our choice that divine mind comes to us, the result is as certain that ourselves will be emptied as that the mind dwells in us. And as soon as that is done, God works fully and manifests Himself, in sinful flesh though it be. And that is victory. That is triumph.

And thus with the mind we serve the law of God.

first, thanks for these posts. it gives everyone a more equal footing, if im stating my thought correctly.

second, i read this particular post some time ago and it is one of their points that has really stuck and helped me to understand.

the absolute humility of God is just amazing!! i dont see how we can learn humility, or anything else, until we really, really see, or understand, or it penetrates our dull minds, how God demonstrated it.