I don't think that's the issue. Temptation is always within. Temptation that only exists externally is more appropriately called coercion.

Anyway, I think the real point of difference is whether or not Jesus was tempted by the corruption of His own heart. Jesus was tempted, but the temptation originated from an external source. We tempt ourselves by the evil of our own hearts.

This seems like a switcheroo thingy that you related to in the other thread. Where does Jones say anything about sinful propensities? What the "old guys" said was that Christ took our fallen nature, with its hereditary tendencies. Christ had the "mind of Christ," as well as His own sinless, divine nature. The question is not in regards to Christ's mind or His own nature, but whether the fallen nature which He assumed is the same as ours. The "old guys" asserted that it was.

Regarding b), I forgot about your rather unusual way of understanding "tempted from within." (I say "unusual" because it varies from everyone else's, as far as I'm aware). Had I remember to take this into consideration, I would have said it like this (as I had been doing)

b.Could Christ only be tempted from an external source such as Satan or an agent of his?

To ask the question simply, in another way:

b.If you took aware Satan and his agents, would it have been possible for Christ to have been tempted?

Perhaps this is a better way of asking the question, as it is probably quite a bit clearer than "tempted from within," which is, admittedly, not the clearest of phrases. So I think I'll ask it this way in the future.

It may be that a) is equivalent to b), so that asking just one question may be sufficient.

???
Are you saying that sinful propensities are not the same thing as hereditary tendencies (which expression, in Haskell's context, evidently means hereditary tendencies to sin)?

I'm asking for a quote of something Jones said. As to what "sinful propensities" means, I'd have to see a quote.

Where does it say that being tempted from within constitutes a sin for which sinners are counted guilty in the sight of God?

There's a statement somewhere in the SOP that says something about the sinful desire is prohibited by the law "Thou shalt not covet." Rosangela infers from that to be tempted from within is a sin.

Arnold says it's a sin because we are the ones doing the tempting, so we are sinning in being a tempter.

Yes, of course, sinful desires are prohibited by the law. But being tempted to covet is a not a sin. Sin is a matter of choice and character - not nature. Just because we are tempted from within it does not mean we are guilty of tempting ourselves.

This aspect of the discussion truly is the fulcrum point, isn't it! The entire matter is cleared up if one can accept the fact being tempted from within (of from without) does not constitute a sin or incur guilt.

This does seem to be a major difference of opinion. The "old guys" (as Arnold calls them) emphasized that being tempted is not sin, but Original Sin ideas have come in our midst, and confusion between temptation and sin has sunk in. Of course, is simply being tempted is sin, we're in a bad way, as Christ could not have been tempted in all points as we are.

When does sin begin?


From my understanding sin begins when we start to play with sin in our minds. Fantasizing it.

The initial temptation isn't sin.
The thought enters our mind luring us to accept it.
Christ was tempted in this way -- the thought placed in His mind.

But if we allow the thought to stay there and play with it and fantasize it, it is sin even if we don't actually do it.

Christ cast out the thought immediately with a quote from scripture.

The thought:
"If you are the Son of God change this stone into bread"
Christ's immediate response: "It is written.....

The title of this thread troubled me from the moment I saw it.
Thus I haven't responded to this thread before this.

Christ never lusted to sin.
We should never give any indication of that kind about our sinless Savior.

To lust is not momentary temptation. To lust is more than that.
Matt. 5:28 tells us to "lust" is sin.