Of course now you throw the common rag that every person who tries to get away from God's law does -- saying I'm just "cleaning the outside" and don't believe in inner renewal, and the Holy Spirit imprinting His law in mind and heart, because I don't trust my own feelings and determine to base what is right or wrong upon God's Word. Because I believe God's commands take precedence over even the best understanding we have of love.

That somehow I'm trying to "generate love" by obeying a set of rules.
I guess you didn't read my posts --

I wrote:
"That love response in us grows as we contemplate the cross, and what Christ has done for us. And then, yes, we want to do what God says. We love to do what He says, because we love HIM. We love others because we see His love for them. But it will always be our love from our human hearts and minds. Influenced and renewed (and I must add, purified) by the Holy Spirit, yes, but still our human love."




Here you clearly say that love as God defines it is not subject to God's law, but determines what the law must be.

Doesn't quite make sense does it --
Since God's law and God's love are never in conflict.


Yet, with that logic, people say, "now that I know something about God's love, I'll let that determine what God's law must be.
That, whether you agree or not, is the logical conclusion of what you said.

A person will never escape HUMAN thought, for that is the center of their being -- a human being that thinks. You will never think exactly the same as anyone else.
Your definition of "how God defines love" will never be exactly the same in actual situations, as anothers.

And God's thoughts are far above our thoughts.

God's definition of love is FAR ABOVE our concept of that love.
Our BEST attempts fall short.

-- A person will never even know how God defines love unless they study His Word and His commands.
He will never know how God's commands define love unless they study His Word and His commands.

We can NEVER depend on self thinking we've arrived at some level of perfect love within that we no longer need to follow God's commandments.


So are you saying God's law is not binding? It's not required of a Christian to "keep God's commandments"?
Is it a burden to you?
Actually, I think the one who thinks it's a big chore to obey God's commandments is the one who is only cleaning the outside.
If you really had God's "love" there would be no resistance to His commandments.
It would be plain that God's law is like a hedge keeping us on the right path as we follow Jesus with gratitude and joy.

Use your syllogisms, friend. You are jumping to erroneous conclusions.

Did I say you were "just" cleaning the outside? Quote me.

What I was trying to get across was that you were cleaning the outside of the cup, and from there working toward cleaning the inside. "If you keep My commandments, you will love Me."

Though you believe in inner renewal, you are teaching that it comes from outward compliance. Your cart precedes the horse.

1) The law is binding, not because it is written on stone, but because it is written on the heart. That's the only way for the law to be truly binding.

2) Keeping the commandments is required, like breathing is required.

3) Why would it be a burden, if it is simply carrying out my impulses? Now, if I was trying to keep the law, but my heart really wanted to do something else, that would be a burden. The only way for the law to be not a burden is for my heart and mind to be renewed. Anything short is "grit your teeth and bear it" legalism.

because God is love He is able to extend grace to us, who have failed in loving Him supremely and others as ourself. if He were not love He would have just wiped us out and went on His merry way without a second thought.

the messenger of the Lord seems to have thought differently:







there is only one way into heaven, studying Christ, His love for us, how He treated all.

Way to go Arnold! Ask for quotes!

I truly regret missing this week's posts as they happened; may have helped sooner. Shall touch here on salient bits from the whole week's discussion.

I'll come to grace in a moment...; it deserves a strong mention! lol

Love and law. The law of God expresses his love so we can understand how far from it we sinful humans are: they are synonymous, God's agape and the Commandments both as written and as demonstrated in the life and death of Christ. Human love, whether family, friendly or romantic, isn't the same as Christian love, our experience of God's agape, since they're varieties of human expression, but..., when backed by Christian love any human expression of love virtually becomes Christian love itself...

Righteous: what's it mean in and for us? Acquittal can't be the main point as then it'd be a misnomer, for much, much more than pardon is involved! Righteous means, as pointed out earlier, right doing: therefore, Rom 5:19 is not the same as Rom 5:18. Being made righteous is what justification by faith is, with the renewal of the mind of Rom 12:2. Acquittal is the legal basis of this spiritual experience, but that acquittal isn't an experience, it's a legal event, and that's a matter of grace alone, is it not, for Jesus is "the Saviour of the world".

Moreover, righteous also means both just & straight(ened): that means correction of the bent (the meaning of "iniquity", isn't it?) of sinfulness in human nature to the justified, righteous, straightened mind of Christ, which he was born with (whatever you wish to call his mind other than justified...! Justified without needing conversion, perhaps?) and we receive at conversion.

Righteous love is Christian love, and that starts as the attitude we have when we use the "mind of Christ": righteousness is attitude first, then thought, word and deed, and that attitude is the mindset submitted to Christ's Lordship by his Spirit dwelling in our mind - hence we have "the mind of Christ", just as he learned obedience by the things he suffered. The things he suffered is best interpreted as deprivation of sinful satisfaction, which his adopted, sinful flesh craved, but he learned obedience as he followed his Father by grace through faith.

Determining the law of God and its viability/meaning in human life by human measures is indeed "the new theology", since it quite likely interprets Christ's suffering in learning by obedience as something other than the suffering of his sinful, human flesh which he felt: he didn't conquer sin in the flesh to be our Saviour (...says the new theology; also, he's our Example after qualifying as Saviour as in the paragraph above!), so we can't either - whatever sort of logic you want to call that, that's the end result of the "new theology".

Agape is who God is, but what God is, the essence of the Godhead or divine nature, is holiness. Holiness calls for justice and mercy, that is wrath against sin and redemption from sin (& the wrath due it), and agape supplies both.

The fruits of the Spirit conclude with what??? "Against such there is no law." Holiness of God and righteousness of Christ, imputed as our renewed minds and imparted in to our changing and ultimately changed characters - reflecting Christ, are in harmony with the written expression of God's love. The law was given to expose what was contrary to God's will, thus it expressed God's agape, rather than any expression of human wisdom or claims of love. Once we come to Christ, having been driven by the law to seek his salvation from our sins and sinfulness, the law lain in the ark in heaven remains merely a memorial of God's grace in Christ moving out of glory to save this lost world: the written law shall have no more relevance since it is written on our hearts by and in the person of the Holy Spirit (who shall never depart from us, for all eternity; he is our participation in the divine nature...). The Holy Spirit is Christ and the Father's joint, personal omnipresence (thus, not the same type of person as them): he materialises Christ's characteristic righteousness in our minds and lives. Love is equal to the law, and the law is equal to love, but the written law has played its part as Christ's love, agape, remains in our hearts, forever more from this life of faith, for Jesus then to return and fetch us home to be with him where he is.

Now for a bit on grace....

Grace and love...: yes, by grace love is expressed to us in Christ. They speak for each other, though, don't they? They're synonymous, aren't they: love is graceous and grace is loving..., speaking of agape here, of course.

Grace itself is misstated, imho, as that which we don't deserve: undeserved favour. Is that all??! Isn't grace another book bigger than "favour" of whichever sort it is here rightly said to be?!! It was Ps Ian Hartley, originally of South Africa, but possibly now still in Canada somewhere, who related to us young adults at the camp meeting sessions reserved for us who were older than senior youth - 26-35, that grace is God's actions, his plans, his creation, and then also his intervention in our creation after we turned from him.

God's grace is his lifestyle. Think a little wider than "words": what does God do with himself, has he also done and shall always do, after sin in over and gone??? He provides all that his creation could ever want or think to need and want, and that includes basing our justification, sanctification and glorification in Jesus' graceous, incarnated life, which we receive by accepting his spiritual history as ours, believing he graceously made his move so we find out afterwards that it's all sorted out for us, should we wish his option.

Grace doesn't just encompass salvation mercy, etc. It is God's whole story of catering to fallen and unfallen creatures, and more than that, since we don't know the end of his plans, into eternity to come, beyond relocating to the new earth....

that is an interesting thought. no one "deserves" life. or anything else the Lord has provided for the fallen and unfallen.

Good thing my quotes are confined to a limited area.