Mike.

You and I both agree that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live in such a way that our thoughts, words and deeds fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. The law demands that we experience the love of God in every detail. And, it is the law that describes those details. Without the law we would not know sin and righteousness.

Unquote.

Are we now still need the law to discern sin and righteousness? Is it not enough to be Christ’ like alone, focusing on Christ through faith? I understand that I fall short of Christ like attitude, for even loving my self I still failed (I still smoke 1-2 packs of cigarette a day and drink and enjoy night lives), but I do love my neighbors, ready to help them in their needs if I am able. But I admit that the 7th commandment held my step to go further in the desire of the flesh.

Did Adam & Eve know about the details of the law? I think no! They were created in perfection, they didn’t need the law! The only law is not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are we not after the miracle of rebirth, been perfected in the new mind of Christ, where we would live as according to the impulse of our new heart filled with the love of God? Are we not have the same mind and heart as Adam & Eve had before the fall?

If this is all true, then we do not need the Ten Commandments as A&E didn’t have it too, right? We could live a life that suits God without coming under the law’s jurisdiction with the obligation to keep and obey it, couldn’t we?

In His love

James S

Tom, I believe God uses the law as the standard in judgment, rather than Himself, because He is also on trial. The law serves as an unbiased witness in judgment. By it both we and God are vindicated.

James, I believe our first parents comprehended the principles which were later expressed on Sinai as ten commandments. Sister White makes it clear that they were articulated to meet man in his fallen condition. But just because we are born again it does not mean we no longer need the law. The law continually reminds us that we need Jesus to live in harmony with the law.

1-17 (Neh. 9:6-15). Father by Side of Son in Giving Law.--When the law was spoken, the Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth, stood by the side of His Son, enshrouded in the fire and the smoke on the mount. It was not here that the law was first given; but it was proclaimed, that the children of Israel, whose ideas had become confused in their association with idolaters in Egypt, might be reminded of its terms, and understand what constitutes the true worship of Jehovah (ST Oct. 15, 1896). {1BC 1103.13}

Adam and Eve Knew the Law.--Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of God. It was printed on their hearts, and they understood its claims upon them (MS 99, 1902). {1BC 1104.1}

The law of God existed before man was created. It was adapted to the condition of holy beings; even angels were governed by it. After the fall, the principles of righteousness were unchanged. Nothing was taken from the law; not one of its holy precepts could be improved. And as it has existed from the beginning, so will it continue to exist throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. "Concerning thy testimonies," says the psalmist, "I have known of old that thou hast founded them forever (ST April 15, 1886). {1BC 1104.2}

Law Suited to Holy Order of Beings.--The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden. After God had made the world, and created man upon the earth, He made the Sabbath for man. After Adam's sin and fall nothing was taken from the law of God. The principles of the ten commandments existed before the fall, and where of a character suited to the condition of a holy order of beings. After the fall, the principles of those precepts were not changed, but additional precepts were given to meet man in his fallen state (3SG 295). {1BC 1104.3}

Worded to Meet Fallen Intelligences.--The law of Jehovah dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellowman. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression (ST April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.4}

The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God (Ibid., March 14, 1878). {1BC 1104.5}

Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue.--In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law (Ibid., April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.6}

(Isa. 58:13, 14). Every Specification Is God's Character.--The God of heaven has placed a benediction upon them that keep the commandments of God. Shall we stand as a peculiar people of God, or shall we trample upon the law of God and say it is not binding? God might just as well have abolished Himself. In the law every specification is the character of the infinite God (MS 12, 1894). {1BC 1104.7}

Law Denounces Slightest Sin.--God has given His law for the regulation of the conduct of nations, of families, and of individuals. There is not one worker of wickedness, though his act be the lightest and the most secret, that escapes the denunciation of that law (MS 58, 1897). {1BC 1104.8}

Holiness Made Known.--Our duty to obey this law is to be the burden of this last message of mercy to the world. God's law is not a new thing. It is not holiness created, but holiness made known. It is a code of principles expressing mercy, goodness, and love. It presents to fallen humanity the character of God, and states plainly the whole duty of man (MS 88, 1897). {1BC 1104.9}

(John 14:15). Ten Commandments--Ten Promises.--The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined (MS 41, 1896). {1BC 1105.1}

The ten holy precepts spoken by Christ upon Sinai's mount were the revelation of the character of God, and made known to the world the fact that He had jurisdiction over the whole human heritage. That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO, and Live (Letter 89, 1898). {1BC 1105.2}

(Rom. 12:1; 2 Peter 1:4). A Wall of Protection.--In the ten commandments God has laid down the laws of His kingdom. Any violation of the laws of nature is a violation of the law of God. {1BC 1105.3}

The Lord has given His holy commandments to be a wall of protection around His created beings, and those who will keep themselves from the defilement of appetite and passion may become partakers of the divine nature. Their perceptions will be clear. They will know how to preserve every faculty in health, so that it may be presented to God in service. The Lord can use them: for they understand the words of the great apostle, "I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (MS 153, 1899). {1BC 1105.4}

Mike wrote:

James, I believe our first parents comprehended the principles which were later expressed on Sinai as ten commandments. Sister White makes it clear that they were articulated to meet man in his fallen condition. But just because we are born again it does not mean we no longer need the law. The law continually reminds us that we need Jesus to live in harmony with the law.

Unquote.

The Ten Commandments remind you that you need Jesus to live in harmony with the law.

I believe that “love” or “charity” remind me of Jesus and the need to be like him.

In 1 Corinthians 13:1-4 Paul described what “love” is, which is a description of the love of God, which is his righteousness and also the righteousness of the Law.

I believe that this description is sufficient to guide Christ believers to become like him, through a walk after the Spirit with faith in him. This supercede the Law, therefore, Christ ordered us to love each other as we love ourselves (John 15:12, 1 John 3:23) which ended the function of the Law for Christ believers. Those who remain under the Law surely need the law to guide them, at least to know what sin is, but this mean they serve the ministry of the letter. On the other hand, those who wants to be like him, through faith and a walk after the Spirit they would have the love of God, his righteousness and become righteous. They serve the ministry of the Spirit which supercede the ministry of the letter according to 2 Corinthians 3:4-11. And for them whatever is not of faith is sin, because it comes from “self”, the deeds of the flesh.

Therefore, I believe either those who were before the cross (COI who were under the Law) and those who were after the cross (Christ believers), they would be all judge by the righteousness of God, his unselfish love in order to be fit in heaven.

In His love

James S.

James, I agree that we need the example of Jesus in order to correctly interpret and experience the law. The law tells us what to do, and Jesus shows us how to do it. If we abide in Jesus we cannot commit a known sin. The secret to success is to stay connected to Jesus.

Mike.

Here is my other view.

Why was the law issued at Sinai? Why is it so important?

Because without the law sin would not be imputed because there is no transgression, even though sin does exist. This means there would be no 2nd death as the wages of sin, where sin here is the transgression of the law.

But because God is going to safe men through Christ redemption, there is a resurrection from the death to a 2nd life, and if there is no law, there is no transgression and sin could not be imputed where God has no right to execute 2nd death as the wage of sin, and this would make all men have the right to go to heaven, because Christ redemption has made a justification to all men once and for all.

What would happen then if heaven is full with sinners, murderers, thieves, adulterers, self-loving people? This surely would not happen, therefore, a judgment is necessary to be held at the end of time to judge who is fit for heaven. This judgment need a legal means, and this means is the law as a standard of righteousness, a holy precept which is a description of God’s own character, and to the wicked it is a means of condemnation.

Even though Christ had justify all men to eternal life once and for all by his redemption work, but since it was an Objective Justification, God’s grace towards men, there is a possibility that some people reject his grace for they still have the freedom to choose and more important, nothing change to men character, they are all still sinners in and out of them selves. Therefore, God still must do some thing to work out his grace towards men in order they might enjoy this salvation, which is maintaining this salvation for men who believe it and accept it, for no one could maintain this salvation by their own power and effort.

By his grace we receive faith and a new heart and the Holy Spirit to enable us to maintain what God has done for us, even though he who did it for us, doing his will through us, what is need from us is only a will to live by the Spirit. This righteous experience is a Subjective Justification, for it depend to our will, our choice.

Therefore, the law is such an important means, which could not be annul by faith, either by grace or by Christ death, for it is the Standard of Judgment, to justify us for our righteousness obtained through faith (Subjective Justification) that allow us to go to heaven or to condemn us for our sin, where 2nd death is the wage of sin.

Without the law, sin is not imputed and God has no right to execute the 2nd death upon sinners and there is no judgment to judge people, whether they are righteous or not.

Is this a right view, what do you think?

In His love

James S.

The law is as eternal as God Himself - it is an expression of His divine character, therefore, it is has always existed. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Since sin is the transgression of the law, it is obvious that law and faith have always been a reality. In judgment, the condemnation and death of unsaved sinners is based on the fact they rejected the means by which God made law keeping possible.

Mike.

This topic is about: Justification.

There are some people in this forum who believes that there are two events of justification.

The 1st: God justify all men through Christ redemption, but applicable only to those who believe him.
The 2nd: At the day of Judgment, God justify only those who has faith in Christ and live righteous as according to the demand of the law.

The 1st is without the law, the 2nd is with the law.

Is this true, do you agree with this?

In His love

James S