The Scriptures say "love is the fulfilling of the law" so "intertwined" looks like a good word to me. We could say the law is a written expression of love.

Righteous: what's it mean in and for us? Acquittal can't be the main point as then it'd be a misnomer, for much, much more than pardon is involved! Righteous means, as pointed out earlier, right doing: therefore, Rom 5:19 is not the same as Rom 5:18. Being made righteous is what justification by faith is, with the renewal of the mind of Rom 12:2. Acquittal is the legal basis of this spiritual experience, but that acquittal isn't an experience, it's a legal event, and that's a matter of grace alone, is it not, for Jesus is "the Saviour of the world".

Moreover, righteous also means both just & straight(ened): that means correction of the bent (the meaning of "iniquity", isn't it?) of sinfulness in human nature to the justified, righteous, straightened mind of Christ, which he was born with (whatever you wish to call his mind other than justified...! Justified without needing conversion, perhaps?) and we receive at conversion.

Righteous love is Christian love, and that starts as the attitude we have when we use the "mind of Christ": righteousness is attitude first, then thought, word and deed, and that attitude is the mindset submitted to Christ's Lordship by his Spirit dwelling in our mind - hence we have "the mind of Christ", just as he learned obedience by the things he suffered. The things he suffered is best interpreted as deprivation of sinful satisfaction, which his adopted, sinful flesh craved, but he learned obedience as he followed his Father by grace through faith.

Like two branches from the same root? I understand the way the scripture states it makes it look like two different concepts (?) but is it? How about love is "living" the law?

Isn't that how Jesus fulfilled the law? He lived it by doing nothing but acts of love, or said better, lived for God and His fellowman?

"Thou shalt not steal" is a part of the law but isn't that really saying "Thou shalt love your fellowman by not stealing from him"?

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

If the law is loving God and our fellowman and we break one point of that law, then we have failed in loving.

Yes, no, maybe?

We've all been assuming what everyone means by "love", and that makes an ass of each of us.

Yes, Christian love is indeed agape in our hands...: I said that in my first post. "Love" is the most confusable Bible teaching that there is, at least in general conversation! Agape starts with God, and our use of it goes by his written Word and law, and his incarnated Son.

I follow your sequence, Dedication, and you're right. Maybe put in a bit more detail, from now on, to clarify between our natural love, Christian agape and agape from God, when referring to them...?

In looking back over this thread, I notice that Colin said that agape was the opposite of sin, and I said the same thing (independently, not having read what Colin wrote) using the same word "agape." Arnold agreed with what Colin and I wrote.

Nobody was speaking of "our love," were they?

Do you honestly think that anyone here would assert that our love doesn't need to be in subjection to God's commands and word?

To say something like this means you conceive of God's law and His love as two separate and distinct things.

Yet His word tells us that "love is the fulfilling of the law." Given that love is the fulfilling of the law, I'm not seeing the sense of your statement. Obviously one cannot stand without the other, since they are intertwined, so it's not that part I find confusing, but the first part which says, "love and God's law must be combined."

The problem is that this implies it's possible that they not be (combined). But this is an impossibility, unless by "love" you mean something which isn't love, because "love is the fulfilling of the law," which means that wherever is found, there you find the fulfilling of the law.

But, as I pointed out in a previous post -- agape love can also mean the "higher" Christian's love. Thus still OUR love, not God's LOVE as in the perfect, holy, righteous God.
Though it be the work of the Holy Spirit transforming the life.

The term 'agape' is rarely used in ancient manuscripts, but was used by the early Christians to refer to the self-sacrificing love of God for humanity, which they were committed to reciprocating and practicing towards God and among one another (also see kenosis).

Yes, I was. I was consistantly speaking of our love.

From the start I was looking at this as OUR view of love.

T:Do you honestly think that anyone here would assert that our love doesn't need to be in subjection to God's commands and word?

d:How would I know?

Though I've been a member for about four years, I hadn't read or posted for A LONG TIME.

There's still one poster that I'm not sure about -- the one that wrote "From there we went on to for instance quote the bulk of Pauls letter to the Galatians. Though I am not suprised that you, wishing to promote the primacy of the law, would not go there."

That appears as a pretty sarcastic reply to the thought that we must subject OUR love to God's word and law. The impression it gives me, is that he is against having God's word and law as a measuring rod of our love. Against OUR LOVE being in subjection to God's Word and Law.

how about love is "living" the law? isnt that how Jesus fulfilled the law? He lived it by doing nothing but acts of love, or said better, lived for God and His fellowman?

But, as I pointed out in a previous post -- agape love can also mean the "higher" Christian's love. Thus still OUR love, not God's LOVE as in the perfect, holy, righteous God.
Though it be the work of the Holy Spirit transforming the life.

The term 'agape' is rarely used in ancient manuscripts, but was used by the early Christians to refer to the self-sacrificing love of God for humanity, which they were committed to reciprocating and practicing towards God and among one another (also see kenosis).

But nobody else was, which should have been clear. Even if you didn't understand this by the word "agape," this was immediately pointed out to you, by several people.

Do you know anybody at all (i.e. any Christians) who would assert that our love doesn't need to be in subjection to God's commands and word?

That sounds like Colin. He's just enigmatic (as opposed to sarcastic).

Regarding the rest of the post, this has been covered before. It's been pointed out repeatedly that God's love is what's being talked about, not human love.

Assuming that God's love is understood, am I correct in assuming that you're in agreement with the points I made?

Form Wiki:



I've not seen "agape" used by Christians differently than as pointed out here.

But nobody else was, which should have been clear. Even if you didn't understand this by the word "agape," this was immediately pointed out to you, by several people.

With a little thought, this should be clear it seems to me.

I don't see why that would matter. Do you know anybody at all (i.e. any Christians) who would assert that our love doesn't need to be in subjection to God's commands and word?

That sounds like Colin. He's just enigmatic (as opposed to sarcastic).

You are not really addressing my points only insisting that I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN YOUR MIND.

No, it was NOT AT ALL CLEAR that EVERYONE was just talking about God and His love, and not humanity and their love.
For example -- "love is the fulfilling of the law"
Are you saying that has nothing to do with our love?
I doubt that's what you meant.

-- actually there was a great mixing of the two. Which is good in it's own sense, when one understands both sides.

But to insist that "love is fulfilling the law" was "obviously all about God's love" and not about the person's love just isn't factual.







OF COURSE GOD'S LOVE IS PERFECT.
There is absolutely no question whatsoever that God's love is perfect, pure, noble, righteous, just, merciful, gracious, absolutely perfect, and every other word that is in our vocabulary that defines ultimate goodness and perfection.


There is absolutely no question what-so-ever concerning that truth.




Form Wiki:



I didn't study Wiki--

But even Wiki, says agape love was love the Christians were to practice towards God and one another.
So it too, shows it's human counterpart.
It really isn't much different from my explanation.

The sources I've read don't limit "agape" to God.
They also speak of the "agape" love of the Christians.

Using the Bible as the source:

AGAPE: #G26

Matt 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love (AGAPE) of many shall wax cold.

John 13:35 "By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love (AGAPE) one to another.

Romans 12:9 "Let love (AGAPE) be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

The above text is interesting -- it shows that people's (AGAPE) needed some upgrading and guidance, it was far from God's AGAPE love.

1 Cor.13:10 Love (AGAPE) works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (AGAPE)is the fulfilling of the law.
This was an oft quoted text -- this text is definitely speaking OF OUR LOVE for our neighbor.
Love works no ill to his neighbor (no stealing, cheating, hating, lying, killing, coveting, adultery) it keeps the law.

Of course if it keeps the law, it isn't sinning.


1 Cor. 13 The word "charity" is AGAPE, and the whole chapter is defining how we are to AGAPE love. It's a whole list concerning how WE SHOULD LOVE.



1 Cor. 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity. (AGAPE)

1 Cor. 16:24 (Paul writes) My love(AGAPE) be with you all in Christ Jesus.

2 Cor. 2:5 "I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love (AGAPE) which I have more abundantly unto you.

2 Cor. 2:7-8 So rather you should forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love (AGAPE) toward him.

So again --
From the start I was looking at this as OUR view of love. It must always be fed from the law and the Word, and even then our concept of the totality of God's righteous love is far beyond our conception, even at it's best.

So my point was that we must always subject our love to God's word and God's law. Which I believe you agree with.




So nobody else was talking about the human element?
Are you sure?
And if not
Why not?



The question surprises me!
But yes, I've met quite a few who feel that love is above the law. That God's commandments are to "rein in the sinners", who don't have the Holy Spirit, but once one is a Christian they no longer need the law, they are led by the Spirit and the promptings of love. I've even had people tell me they no longer really need the Bible, once they've found Jesus, and received the Holy Spirit.

I should start a thread on that -- and where that all comes from, maybe talking about it on this thread confuses things.



No, it's not Colin, not at all.



I guess you don't want to talk about the human side of it then?

I guess I'm just wasting my time?



You made many points,
If its that God's love is perfectly sinless, of course, there's never been a question on that point.

If it's our growth in agape love, no that is not sinless.