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Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #112408
04/29/09 03:51 PM
04/29/09 03:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Tom, I'm talking about Jesus' experience. Please name the things that happened to Him between Gethsemane and Golgotha and then explain why you think it will or will not happen to the wicked at the end of time.

T: If you're talking about external things, like being betrayed, being taken to appear before Pilate and Herod, etc., these things wouldn't apply to the wicked. If you're talking about his mental suffering, there would be some things in common, due to the impact of sin upon the mind. For Jesus Christ it would have been worse because He took the sin of the world, as well as being more sensitive, because of His sinlessness.

Please post something from the Bible and/or the SOP that you believe Jesus experienced that the wicked will experience in the same way. For example, Ellen White wrote:

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

Please show me where the wicked are described as responding to the wrath of God in the same way Jesus did.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #112414
04/29/09 04:26 PM
04/29/09 04:26 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Why?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #112444
04/30/09 01:35 PM
04/30/09 01:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I'm trying to understand how Jesus' experience helps us understand what's involved in the punishment of the wicked at the end of time. Ellen wrote, "Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." However, I'm having a hard time seeing any similarities between Jesus and the wicked as it relates to drinking the cup of wrath and woe. I was hoping you can help me see it.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #112458
04/30/09 04:42 PM
04/30/09 04:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
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Ok. I'll try.

If you look at the Psalms, you can see Jesus' reaction. There are actually quite a lot of Psalms which go into His experience on the cross, but here's three to start with: Ps. 22, Ps. 69, Ps. 88. So I'd suggest starting out by taking a careful look at these psalms. After you've done so, please let me know, and we'll go to the next step.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #112485
05/01/09 02:08 PM
05/01/09 02:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Thanx, Tom. But where does the Bible or the SOP describe the wicked thinking and feeling the same way Jesus did while He was drinking the cup? From what I can tell, based on what I've read so far, the thoughts and feelings of the wicked while they are drinking the cup do not even come close to resembling those of Jesus. Do you know what I mean?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #112519
05/01/09 08:40 PM
05/01/09 08:40 PM
Tom  Offline
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They're are similarities. Sin causes us to believe things about God that aren't true. For example, on the cross, Jesus felt that God was abandoning Him. You can see a great battle throughout Psalm 22 where Christ fought against what His senses were telling Him, and finally gained the victory by faith.

Quote:
22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.


The Psalm ends on a triumphant note. If you look through the psalms I mentioned (and there are many others) you can see the despondency and negative thoughts which sin brings.

Here are some similarities:

Christ felt God's wrath for sin. The wicked will feel this. Christ felt abandoned by God. The wicked will feel this. Christ felt cursed by God. The wicked will feel this.

Now because of the fact that Christ had a righteous character, and the wicked don't, there will be differences as well, but the dynamic of how sin plays out, causing one to believe things things about God which aren't true, play out for both.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #113183
05/16/09 07:31 PM
05/16/09 07:31 PM
L
liane  Offline
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Posts: 302
Bishop, CA
Hi Tom:

Could you give me scriptural backup for what you said in your last post:

Christ felt God's wrath for sin. The wicked will feel this. Christ felt abandoned by God. The wicked will feel this. Christ felt cursed by God. The wicked will feel this.

It would be helpful for me to understand. Thanks,

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #113220
05/17/09 02:03 AM
05/17/09 02:03 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I'm trying to understand how Jesus' experience helps us understand what's involved in the punishment of the wicked at the end of time. Ellen wrote, "Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." However, I'm having a hard time seeing any similarities between Jesus and the wicked as it relates to drinking the cup of wrath and woe. I was hoping you can help me see it.


The statement from Ellen White which you found gives us the clue.
Quote:
Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}
Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}


So what will the sinner feel when they stand before the great white throne judgment seat after the 1000 years?
Quote:
GC 665-666 "In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: "I saw a great white throne, (quotes Rev. 20:11-12).....
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}
Above the throne is revealed the cross;...the fearful events of that night of horror--the unresisting prisoner, forsaken by His best-loved disciples,...the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross;.....
The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them....
The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. "All this," cries the lost soul, "I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me.


Indeed, there are differences in what Christ experienced and what the wicked will experience.

But let's look at the similarities.

1. Christ suffered the condemnation of the law.
The lost will suffer the condemnation of the law.

2. The guilt from the sins placed upon Him pressed heavily upon Christ's heart.
The guilt of their own sins will be pressed upon the hearts of the lost.

3. Both experience the wrath of God against sin that annihilates the sinner. (For Christ it was FELT in it's fullest horror, but He rose again. For the lost it is Annihilation.
Heb. 12:29 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire.
Mighty to save, yes, but He hates sin and will annihilate it utterly.

4. They felt the anguish when no more mercy is available.

5. They realize their great loss. (For Christ he FELT the loss for all eternity from His Father Whom He knew and loved beyond our comprehension-- but His separation did not end up being eternal. For the lost they are shown what they rejected, what they might of had, what was done so they could have had, and they realize what they lost because of their clinging to sin.) The agony will be great! In other places it says there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth".

Re: does God punish? [Re: dedication] #113224
05/17/09 04:24 AM
05/17/09 04:24 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This was a well written post. (#113220)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #113225
05/17/09 04:30 AM
05/17/09 04:30 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Could you give me scriptural backup for what you said in your last post:

Christ felt God's wrath for sin. The wicked will feel this. Christ felt abandoned by God. The wicked will feel this. Christ felt cursed by God. The wicked will feel this.


Regarding Christ, it seems to me Psalm 22 makes this clear.

Regarding the wicked, Christ speaks of the wicked's weeping and gnashing of teeth. I think that relates to it. The imagery of the lake of fire I think is involving this as well. The fire represents the mental anguish the wicked will feel. This is easy to see from the SOP:

Quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. (DA 764; emphasis mine)


Of course, the glory of God is His character, so the conclusion is the revelation of God's character results in mental anguish for the wicked. I'm saying "mental anguish," because I can't think of a better term for it. I'm referring to what the SOP says "is to them a consuming fire." (Christ said, "My heart burns like wax.")

Regarding where to see this for the wicked just from Scripture, other than where I just mentioned, I'll have to think some more.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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