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Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #113620
05/25/09 06:48 PM
05/25/09 06:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thanks, Tom. Where do either one of you find inspired support for the idea that the literal fire that consumes the rubble and rubbish of earth does not also cause the wicked to feel physical pain?

Also, how do you explain the time gap between the wicked experiencing the judgment of their sins (pages 666, 668, 671) and God raining down fire from above which unites with the fires raised up from below (pages 672 and 673)? For example, between judgment of their sins and the outburst of fire is the following scene:

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them."

Quote:
GC 666, 668, 671
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

GC 672, 673
Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Are you suggesting that the fires described above are symbolic of the eternal anguish the wicked feel during the judgment of their sins?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #113625
05/25/09 07:49 PM
05/25/09 07:49 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Thanks, Tom. Where do either one of you find inspired support for the idea that the literal fire that consumes the rubble and rubbish of earth does not also cause the wicked to feel physical pain?


I can't speak for Colin, but I've quotes these passages so many times for you I've lost count. You should be able to quote them by memory by now!

Quote:
Also, how do you explain the time gap between the wicked experiencing the judgment of their sins (pages 666, 668, 671) and God raining down fire from above which unites with the fires raised up from below (pages 672 and 673)?


There'd have to be a time gap for my view to make sense.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that the fires described above are symbolic of the eternal anguish the wicked feel during the judgment of their sins?


This is from "The Desire of Ages"

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)


The "glory of God" is His character.

Quote:
The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, he prayed, "I beseech thee, show me thy glory." In answer God declared, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: (God's Amazing Grace, page 322)


Given was inspiration tells us in "The Desire of Ages," it is not literal fire that results in the destruction of the wicked.

Reading the entire chapter "It Is Finished," especially page 764, should make this even clearer.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #113629
05/25/09 09:59 PM
05/25/09 09:59 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
there are many things we miss in our studies, probably because the subjects are so deep and we so dull.

but regarding "how long"...
Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}

are we looking at one day? several days? weeks? months? longer?

so how are we to know how long reviewing the long history of evil and the kindness of God will take?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #113647
05/26/09 11:24 AM
05/26/09 11:24 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Actually, I'm more interested in Ellen White's description of fire on pages 672 and 673 of the GC (quoted above). Is this symbolic of their mental anguish? Or, it is literal fire which causes the earth to burn and the wicked to feel physical pain?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #113662
05/26/09 05:26 PM
05/26/09 05:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
From "The Desire of Ages"

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)


It's the glory of God, not literal fire, that destroys the wicked.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #113700
05/27/09 04:41 PM
05/27/09 04:41 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Actually, I'm more interested in Ellen White's description of fire on pages 672 and 673 of the GC (quoted above). Is this symbolic of their mental anguish? Or, it is literal fire which causes the earth to burn and the wicked to feel physical pain?


My vote's for literal fire, as "weapons of the deep" are also mentioned, aside from the lake of fire and "rocks on fire": the whole earth's surface, interior and contents melts and burns, it says. Also the human constructions on earth are destroyed: that's real fire of purification and recreation, not so?

God's glory is doubtless a factor, but there is judgement and fire destruction here, too.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Colin] #113703
05/27/09 04:46 PM
05/27/09 04:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
So "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)" means "The glory of Him who is love, in addition to literal fire, will destroy the wicked." The idea is that this is a joint work of destruction. It's not simply their not being able to bear God's character that causes their destruction, but there not being able to bear God's character in addition to literal fire.

Quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107-108)


Given this to be the case, I can't see the logic its being literal fire that destroys, or slays, the wicked.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #114249
06/06/09 09:38 PM
06/06/09 09:38 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thanks, Tom. Where do either one of you find inspired support for the idea that the literal fire that consumes the rubble and rubbish of earth does not also cause the wicked to feel physical pain?

Also, how do you explain the time gap between the wicked experiencing the judgment of their sins (pages 666, 668, 671) and God raining down fire from above which unites with the fires raised up from below (pages 672 and 673)? For example, between judgment of their sins and the outburst of fire is the following scene:

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them."

Quote:
GC 666, 668, 671
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

GC 672, 673
Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Are you suggesting that the fires described above are symbolic of the eternal anguish the wicked feel during the judgment of their sins?


Quote:
The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. {4SP 487.1}
this last phrase is left out of the great controversy book.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #153490
06/22/13 09:23 AM
06/22/13 09:23 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Here is another related thread that I decided to bump.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: does God punish? [Re: Daryl] #153511
06/22/13 08:21 PM
06/22/13 08:21 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Quote:
To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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