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Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Colin] #114684
06/12/09 07:23 PM
06/12/09 07:23 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
How about it being really simple.

One Godhead - deity/divine nature.

God the Father has one begotten Son, who shares the one Godhead with him, they each being persons with bodies and physical forms, in whose appearance we are also created - not forgetting attitude and character into that mix.

The Holy Spirit is the infinite Spirit of that one Godhead, in which our human spirit is mirrored, except our spirit is finite and is a part of our mind or something while we're alive: Father and Son each have this divine Spirit, and they fellowship in its communion.

We in turn receive Jesus and the Father's Spirit, by whom we also have Jesus' personal presence in our lives. Thus we have fellowship with the communion of the Spirit, both with God and with fellow believers. There is scope for a variety of miracles with God's Spirit, like Ezekiel famously experienced, visiting Jerusalem from Babylon with what we would call levitation - well it was in vision.

Before I leave it out...! The Holy Spirit is a person, too, but not the same kind of person as the Father and the Son: the Spirit has no personal, regular form, throne, etc, but is the Spirit of the Father and Son, personally, because it's of the Godhead, naturally. Got no issue with "person" but with the meaning applied to "person" by our church these days. The Handbook of SDA Theology asserts that the Holy Spirit has a body: that's not what's in the Bible!...what little is in the Bible!

Thanks for keeping this thread alive!

while i understand differently i still want to respect that you honestly believe what you believe.

we are urged to be very careful in defining the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. to be very careful not to put our human, finite understanding on them....and while the bible gives us more information on the Father and Son it is quite scanty when it comes to the Holy Spirit. so whether the HS has a body or not we cannot say.

what makes me nervous is saying that the Father and Son share that Spirit somehow. for me that opens doors to all kinds of spiritualism while undermining our understanding that the bible does not teach any form of separation in body, soul, and spirit in us.

james white called the HS the representative of God in the original "fundamental beliefs". that seems, to me, to be a good place to leave it.

or did i misunderstand your meaning entirely?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Tom] #114689
06/12/09 08:08 PM
06/12/09 08:08 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
ur spirits are finite, and alive while we are, and reside only in our bodies, like in our minds, and are our inspiration and imagination or something - nothing critical salvivic: that's all.


So you see our spirit as being something different than our mind? A totally separate entity?


No, Tom, I'm not being scientific, I'm being creative: my spirit isn't something I need to tie down, but would perhaps say it is part of my being, finite as human nature is.

Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: teresaq] #114693
06/12/09 08:41 PM
06/12/09 08:41 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Quote:
while i understand differently i still want to respect that you honestly believe what you believe.

we are urged to be very careful in defining the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. to be very careful not to put our human, finite understanding on them....and while the bible gives us more information on the Father and Son it is quite scanty when it comes to the Holy Spirit. so whether the HS has a body or not we cannot say.

what makes me nervous is saying that the Father and Son share that Spirit somehow. for me that opens doors to all kinds of spiritualism while undermining our understanding that the bible does not teach any form of separation in body, soul, and spirit in us.

james white called the HS the representative of God in the original "fundamental beliefs". that seems, to me, to be a good place to leave it.

or did i misunderstand your meaning entirely?


Spiritualism...?! Not good, indeed. We are finite beings, and there is no separation of body, soul or spirit for us! When we die we die altogether, including our spirits and not just we as souls. I didn't mention last time, sorry..., that I know our spirits die when we die, finite as our spirit is: by spirit, I don't mean the breath of God, but our consciousness, etc.

Yes, Elder White put it well as God's representative: Sister white elaborated with "joint representative" of Father and Son. Remember her fullest statement? The Spirit is all the fulness of the Godhead, manifesting God's grace and all else to us and in us spiritually, through faith?

What worries you is the notion of the Holy Spirit being of the Father and the Son, as I put it, rather than a separate person next to them, in the heavenly counsel? That's too close, in your mind, to "spirit leaving the body" as Satan tries to deceive man, on our level?

Yes, I appreciate your worry! Since God is infinite, and also holy, the Spirit in the fulness of the Godhead brings us Christ's spiritual presence, not his physical presence, not so? He also teaches us all things Christ has taught in the Bible and the SOP, not so? Ghosts, that is evil angels, seek to deceive, but the Spirit of God teaches Christ, and may be tested on Christ's truth! Test the spirits, Paul wrote, whether they confess that Jesus has come in the flesh.

The SOP does point out that the personhood of the Spirit, while very real, is different to that of Father and Son: not the same type of person, not having a body but being their Spirit, the presence of their infinite nature and their joint omnipresence and representative. Beyond that we do know nothing!

Did that help?

Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Colin] #114694
06/12/09 09:05 PM
06/12/09 09:05 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Is your spirit something which can be detached from you, like the Holy Spirit is detached from the Father or the Son?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Tom] #114707
06/13/09 12:11 AM
06/13/09 12:11 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Is your spirit something which can be detached from you, like the Holy Spirit is detached from the Father or the Son?


Can you not read??? Or did you not read? If you did read, you don't believe my plain statement???
Originally Posted By: Colin
Our spirits are finite, and alive while we are, and reside only in our bodies, like in our minds, and are our inspiration and imagination or something - nothing critically salvivic: that's all.

Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Colin] #114714
06/13/09 01:40 AM
06/13/09 01:40 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,130
Nova Scotia, Canada
Colin,

I think Tom's question was in response to this part of your post #114693: "...not having a body but being their Spirit...."


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Daryl] #114728
06/13/09 04:14 AM
06/13/09 04:14 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Thanks, Daryl, but that's an infinite spirit, as I pointed out, so our spirit, as I also said, being finite, can't. smile

Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Tom] #114733
06/13/09 07:30 AM
06/13/09 07:30 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
ur spirits are finite, and alive while we are, and reside only in our bodies, like in our minds, and are our inspiration and imagination or something - nothing critical salvivic: that's all.

So you see our spirit as being something different than our mind? A totally separate entity?

Tom we already went through this together. You seem to know alot about this area, so why don't you tell us(in a summary and in your own words) exactly how you see :

1. the spirit of God,
2. the Spirit of Man, and
3. the Holy Spirit?
4. Mind of Man
5. The differences between Mind and Spirit of man?
6. Anything else to enlighten us.

For our convenience, I am bringing here some Hebrew words and references to Spirit and Mind.

If we look at the word "Spirit" in the OT, 90% use the hebrew words Ruash to describe the spirit of God, men, and animals. Even Ruash is used as "Mind".

If we look at the word "Mind" in the OT, it is predominently used to describe the "soul", the "heart" and the "spirit" of man.

SPIRIT is used over 250 times in the OT
...232x with Hebrew word ruash --- H2131 -- This word is mostly used as spirit :(breath of man or animals) or Spirit of God or Spirit of man.

Ruash -- H2131 -- used 378 times in 348 verses
AV — Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
..a) breath
..b) wind
....1) of heaven
....2) quarter (of wind), side
....3) breath of air
....4) air, gas
....5) vain, empty thing
..c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
....1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
....2) courage
....3) temper, anger
....4) impatience, patience
....5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
....6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
....7) prophetic spirit
..d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
....1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
..e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
....1) desire
....2) sorrow, trouble
..f) spirit
....1) as seat or organ of mental acts
....2) rarely of the will
....3) as seat especially of moral character
..g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
....1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
....2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
....3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
....4) as endowing men with various gifts

This very same word, ruwash, is used to describe man's and God's spirit.

Originally Posted By: H2131 Highlighted
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life.
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.
Gen 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but [there was] none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?
Gen 26:35 Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
Exd 6:9 And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit, and for cruel bondage.
Num 5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones,


MIND is used 39 times in the OT
...12x with Hebrew word leb -- H3820 -- This word is mostly used as the Heart of man.
...15x .............Nephesh -- H5315 -- ............................... Soul of man.
....5x ................Ruash -- H7307 -- ............................... Spirit of man.
....4x .........................H3824 -- ............................... Heart of man.

Mind = Heart : leb - H3820 -- used 593 times in 550 verses
AV — heart 508, mind 12, midst 11, understanding 10, hearted 7, wisdom 6, comfortably 4, well 4, considered 2, friendly 2, kindly 2, stouthearted + 047 2, care + 07760 2, misc 21
1) inner man, mind(12x), will, heart(508x), understanding(10x)
..a) inner part, midst
....1) midst (of things)
....2) heart (of man)
....3) soul, heart (of man)
....4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
....5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
....6) conscience
....7) heart (of moral character)
....8) as seat of appetites
....9) as seat of emotions and passions
....10) as seat of courage

Originally Posted By: H3820 Highlighted
Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for [I have] not [done them] of mine own mind.
Deu 28:65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
2Ch 24:4 And it came to pass after this, [that] Joash was minded to repair the house of the LORD.
Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.


Mind = soul:Nephesh - h5315 - used 753 times in 683 verses
AV — soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47
1) soul(475x), self, life(117x), creature, person(29x), appetite, mind(15x), living being, desire, emotion, passion
..a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
..b) living being
..c) living being (with life in the blood)
..d) the man himself, self, person or individual
..e) seat of the appetites
..f) seat of emotions and passions
..g) activity of mind
....1) dubious
..h) activity of the will
....1) dubious
..i) activity of the character
....1) dubious

Originally Posted By: H5315 Highlighted
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 34:8 And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.
Gen 46:22 These [are] the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls [were] fourteen.
Gen 23:8 And he communed with them, saying, If it be your mind that I should bury my dead out of my sight; hear me, and intreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar,
Eze 23:28 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand [of them] whom thou hatest, into the hand [of them] from whom thy mind is alienated:


Blessings
Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Elle] #114740
06/13/09 04:06 PM
06/13/09 04:06 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,130
Nova Scotia, Canada
I moved this thread into this forum where future posts will not need to be approved by admin before appearing here to public view.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The doctrine of theTrinity - is it Biblical as it is commonly understood? [Re: Daryl] #114744
06/13/09 07:06 PM
06/13/09 07:06 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Cheers, Daryl grin

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