On the conditions of Lucifer's repentance..., who is Michael in the Bible? Michael was suggested to me by another...

The law of God isn't just enforced against sinful man; it is the written code of heavenly society, too, where holiness reigns among all, that code written in the heart, just like with us, already, as we prepare for heaven. Lucifer wasn't just asked to repent and submit: that's the obvious terms of fairness - quite logically. The reality is far bigger than that, as was well known among all the heavenly host.

Hence, who is Michael, and is he relevant here at all?

Then you're both wrong.

That we require the sacrifice, since we require reconciliation with him, does not dictate the meaning of the sacrifice God offers for us

Waggoner contradicts himself, first noting that "propitiation" means a sacrifice given to appease wrath, and then saying that the Bible is devoid of the actual meaning of "propitiation". That's not on. The Bible is replete with God uttering his wrath in judgement against certain instances of sinning, and it couldn't be clearer. Thus propitiation retains its meaning in the Bible, especially because Biblical propitiation involves God appeasing his own wrath by the sacrifice of his Son!

Amen, hallelujah!

How can one object to God's wrath needing to be appeased by the Lamb of God for us, and then God actually providing us with the Lamb of God, his only begotten dear Son?

If you want textual proof, Dedication may have a better list than me, but where's your biblical proof that what Waggoner opines in your quote is correct on Rom 3:25?

I removed "need to" from between "we" and "do." This certainly seems like flogging a dead horse, as I don't see the difference, but let's leave it like this.

The phrase I was asking about was this one: "Therefore it is apparent that our dying to sin is not something we do." I asked about this because "dying to sin" *is* something we do, as opposed to something we don't do because it is something Christ has done. Christ died to sin, and we die to sin. We die to sin when we appreciate what He did for us.



Or "not intending to say," which seems more accurate.



I'm not understanding what it is you think I'm misunderstanding. What is it you think I don't think is the case?

I'd really appreciate it if you would quote something I've said.

I stand corrected on what you said about Tom...

That he misunderstands your statement generally, does indeed create concern.

This reminds me of a story my Mom told me. My grandfather, on my father's side, liked to argue. He was arguing about something, trying to goad my Mom into joining in, but she had decided she wasn't going to argue with him, so she just kept quiet. Eventually Grandpa started arguing the opposite position as to what he was arguing in the first place. He wasn't interested in the position he was discussing, but just wanted to argue!

It seems like no matter what I do, Colin, you find fault, even when our positions agree! I can speak in my own words, quote other authors, quote Scripture, or quote Ellen White, and the reception is the same.

Since you asked for a Bible Study, I'll try to oblige.



The serpent was subtle, and used a subtle approach, which was to instill doubt regarding God's character. Satan led man to distrust God, not believing that God had man's best interest in heard. For example:



This is implying that God does not have our best interests in heart. By believing the serpents lies involving God, man was led into sin. The fundamental problem facing man is not knowing the truth about God.

Continuing in the Gen. 3 account, we see the effect of sin. Adam and Eve ran and hid. Why? Because they felt ashamed and were afraid of God. Why should they have been afraid of God? God had done nothing that they should feel that way towards Him. I'm sure it must have broken God's heart to have His children running away from Him in fear.

God cried out, "Where are you?" He did so so that they could hear the sound of His voice, and know it was safe to come out and present themselves. They evidently did perceive the love and lack of anger in God's voice, and did come out from their hiding place.

From this episode we learn an important truth: Sin causes us to believe things about God which are not true.

Because of our sinful natures, because of centuries of lies about God being ingrained in us, because of the influence of Satan in our culture, the lies about God are thoroughly etched into us.



I really like the following translation of this verse:



This theme permeates Scripture, especially John. It permeates Paul as well, but is easier to perceive in John.



What does it mean to believe in Christ? Jesus compares it to seeing the serpent raised in the wilderness, thus making clear the principle "look and live," or, we could say, "look to live." A common phrase is "seeing is believing," but here we could say it's, "believing is seeing."

The love of God shining from the cross reveals the truth to us about God. As we take in this love, believing the truth we see in Christ, the goodness of God leads us to repentance, and we are reconciled to God.

Paul tells us that therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God. Peter tells us that Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring us to God. Different ways of bringing the same truth.

Ok, please show where Waggoner is wrong. Where does Scripture teach that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness?



Yes, this is what I've been saying. Usually this is the argument that people give to "prove" the propitiation idea. Something like, "Scripture says, 'Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin,' therefore God needs to have Christ die in order to be able to forgive us."



He didn't say the Bible is devoid of the actual meaning of "propitiation." He said, "The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible." It's a mistake to think these two things are the same.



Do you have something like Sodom and Gomorrah in mind? Are you saying that S & G show God's wrath in judgment, which makes clear that Christ had to die in order to appease God's wrath?



There's a lot of reasons why one would find this view objectionable. To name just one, it pits God the Father against Christ. Instead of the work of redemption being God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself it becomes Christ's appeasing the wrath of the Father so He'll forgive us.



Waggoner said, "The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible." He's saying there's nothing in Scripture which says this. If there were something in Scripture which taught this, then Waggoner would be incorrect. But since there's not, Waggoner isn't, and to ask for something from Scripture to prove Waggoner is correct doesn't make sense.

It's like if Waggoner claimed, "There is no text in Scripture which teaches that man should keep Sunday" and you asked, "where's your biblical proof that what Waggoner opines in your quote is correct?"

Isa. 53:4, 5 is a good text to confirm Waggoner's thought, however:



We esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. This is what we thought it. But (the truth!) He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

I recently grabbed my copy of Waggoner's commentary on Romans. Started at chapter 5 (looking for something in particular). Interesting stuff.

That might have something to do with this thread. Or maybe not. It will take some time to ramp up, as I'm still in the process of moving to a new residence.

i dont understand. are you saying God was angry with us but took His anger out on His Son?
this is from john wesleys commentary. is this how you see it? just trying to understand, here.

I may be doing that soon (High probability). Looking forward to it, but lots of work.

How's it going?

more than that we see how we should treat God and our fellowman as opposed to how we do now. we see more clearly how far from true Godliness we are.

but that depends entirely on what our picture of God is.