i couldnt help but think of that verse with bush going to war with irag and the plan to wipe out every country that might be a threat to us.

I think where he went wrong was in not recognizing the significance of 1888. From the SOP:



If this is correct, is seems logically impossible that 9/11 (or any other event post 1888) could be the correct interpretation of anything in Revelation, or elsewhere in Scripture. This is because had Christ come in the 1888 era, it's not possible that any of these things could have been fulfilled later.

Actually, there is a way. One could make the argument that 9/11 could have happened in some other way in the 1888 era, had the 1888 message not been resisted. That would be logically consistent. However, it would be logically impossible to assert that 9/11 is *the* interpretation of Revelation.

At any rate, I think any attempt to interpret Revelation which doesn't take into account the happenings of 1888 is due to failure.

The message was given over 150 years ago that Christ's coming was soon. The SOP tells us it could have been. There has to be a reason why Christ hasn't come. 1888 explains why.

Reluctantly, I need to update my assessment of Jeff Pippenger's teaching.

I listened recently to a sermon by Brother Jeff at the Seven Thunders web site that he gave ealier this year. The link to the video of his sermon is http://theseventhunders.com/cls0921.html. Some of you know I've followed Jeff's ministry for several years. His studies have always stimulated my thinking, but there also have always been some concerns. But this most recent sermon called "Eating the Little Book", raises my concern to a new level.

Jeff claim that the judgment of the living began at 9/11/01 when the twin towers were attacked. He makes that a test of faith now, saying that on that date, the Mighty Angel of Revelation 10 came down with the little open book in his hand and if you and I want to be sealed and be part of the 144,000 we have to accept this interpretation. According to Jeff, the message of the Angel, that is, the message contained in the little book, is the message that the seventh trumpet began sounding on 9/11; the attack on the twin towers was by Islamic extremists and since the 5th and 6th trumpets, according to the 1843 time chart were also Islamic woes, it follows that the twin tower attack is the fulfilment of the seventh trumpet and third woe; and if you fail to understand and accept that interpretation, you are refusing to eat the little book and you will loose not only your position among the 144,000, you'll loose your salvation over it.. (Listen for example to minute 30 to 31 of the video.)

Until now, I've not discouraged anyone from reviewing Jeff's material if they are aware of some of the weaknesses of his interpretations, because much of it was good. I'm sorry I can't do that any longer. I can't recommend him as a study source. Here are some reasons (not ranked):

- The seventh trumpet is like the seventh seal and the seventh plague - probation is closed at that time. Jeff teaches that probation is open under the seventh trumpet.

-Ellen White says the trumpets and seals both have a future application. We should be looking for the future fulfilment of the all seven trumpets and seals in their order rather than for the fulfilment of the seventh trumpet only.

-The message of the little book is the three angel's messages. These are for the world and our focus should be on giving them to the world.
-Ellen White also says the seven thunders are future events that will be disclosed in their order. We don't know all of the details of what lies ahead.
-These ideas misrepresent the character of God. Would God make belief in this interpretation, a minor point of prophecy, a test of salvation for Adventists or for anyone else?

I could add more but you all have the scriptures. "Prove all things".

Mark, thank you for the heads up. Too bad Jeff has gone so far afield. We used to teach at the same camp meetings several years ago.

Personally, I think where he went wrong is in reapplying the prophecies into multiple meanings.

I haven't been following his teachings, but what I have heard I've had major disagreements with.

A point -- there are several people out there, who are claiming "new light" "for the last message" and lacing it with quotes from EGW that all who don't accept the message will be lost. Only problem is they don't agree with each other. That's the problem with the "multiple meanings" approach -- people come up with "private interpretations" which they then proclaim to be the "last testing truth".


On one point I agree with Tom --
The testing message for the reception of the latter rain is the 1888 message.

The big emphases on "accept my message or be lost" already raises a big red flag. Anyone who applies the quotes on the urgency of accepting the "righteousness in Christ" message as a weapon to get people to accept their own message, are beating on the wrong drum.

This movement has a gnostic tone to it.

Jeff has admitted that he has been in error on numerous occasions yet always seems to give a reason or justification for it. This makes him very dangerous.

It is a latter rain movement. Sept 11, 2001 began its commencement. Historically these type of movements breed fanaticism.

It is intellectually based. If you don't embrace a certain knowledge and understanding of these principles you are lost. I have heard this implied from a number of his devotees.

Notice the following statement from Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 291, 292:

Let none be self-confident, as though God had given them special light above their brethren. Christ is represented as dwelling in His people. Believers are represented as "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord," says Paul, "beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

That which Brother D calls light is apparently harmless; it does not look as though anyone could be injured by it. But, brethren, it is Satan's device, his entering wedge. This has been tried again and again. One accepts some new and original idea which does not seem to conflict with the truth. He talks of it and dwells upon it until it seems to him to be clothed with beauty and importance, for Satan has power to give this false appearance. At last it becomes the all-absorbing theme, the one great point around which everything centers; and the truth is uprooted from the heart.

No sooner are erratic ideas started in his mind than Brother D begins to lose faith and to question the work of the Spirit which has been manifested among us for so many years. He is not a man who will entertain what he believes to be special light without imparting it to others; therefore it is not safe to give him influence that will enable him to unsettle other minds. It is opening a door through which Satan will rush in many errors to divert the mind from the importance of the truth for this time. Brethren, as an ambassador of Christ I warn you to beware of these side issues, whose tendency is to divert the mind from the truth. Error is never harmless. It never sanctifies, but always brings confusion and dissension. It is always dangerous. The enemy has great power over minds that are not thoroughly fortified by prayer and established in Bible truth.

There is an intellectual pride emanating from its core. His followers put him on a pedestal. I have heard him referred to as not only brilliant but almost a prophet by a number of his followers.

The 1843 chart has become an icon and the belief that it is infallible is presented as a testing truth (though the original contained a mistake ordained of God).

We do have a chart, but it is more far reaching than the 1843 version. The Bible is our chart. Notice the following statement found in Review and Herald, June 11, 1908.

"God has given us his Word as a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. Its teachings have a vital bearing on our prosperity in all the relations of life. Even in our temporal affairs it will be a wiser guide than any other counselor. Its divine instruction is the only way to success. There is no social position, no phase of human experience, for which the study of the Bible is not an essential preparation.

The Bible is the great standard of right and wrong, clearly defining sin and holiness. Its living principles, running through our lives like threads of gold, are our only safeguard in trial and temptation.

The Bible is a chart, showing us the waymarks of truth. Those who are acquainted with this chart will be enabled to tread with certainty in the path of duty, wherever they may be called to go.

The Bible contains a simple and complete system of theology and philosophy. It is the book that makes us wise unto salvation. It tells us how to reach the abode of eternal happiness. It tells us of the love of God as shown in the plan of redemption, imparting the knowledge essential for all,--the knowledge of Christ."


These are just a few items for starters.

Old Timer to the Maritime forums.

As it has been a while since I read this thread, I will probably need to read it again from the beginning.

We had Jeff Pippenger at our Maritime Campmeeting several years ago as one of our guest speakers, thus the reason for my interest in this thread and for the continuance of it.

The understanding of the Seven Thunders is required understanding for each and every Seventh Day Adventist. Spirit of Prophecy Quote:

Whatever may be man's intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of the Scriptures for greater light. As a people, we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study, clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought before others. {CW 41.1}

So if the Lord is calling us to be students of prophecy, is that optional? The command of the Lord and the will of the Lord should be our focus. We must obey for only through obeying the Lords command can we be sanctified. SOP quote:

Jesus Christ is our example in all things. He began life, passed through its experiences, and ended its record, with a sanctified human will. He was tempted in all points like as we are, and yet because he kept his will surrendered and sanctified, he never bent in the slightest degree toward the doing of evil, or toward manifesting rebellion against God. Have men and women who profess to be followers of Christ, been simply gratifying their own tastes, been confirming themselves in selfishness, in obstinacy, simply living to gratify their carnal propensities? Those who persist in living in this way will at some time in their experience become offended by the truth presented from the word of God. They cannot be one with Christ or abide in him, because they refuse the terms upon which salvation is provided. They do not wear Christ's yoke or lift Christ's burden; for they will not learn of him meekness and lowliness of heart. Those who have a sanctified will, that is in unison with the will of Christ, will day by day have their wills bound to the will of Christ, which will act in blessing others, and react upon themselves with divine power. Many cultivate those things which war against the soul; for their desires and their will are set against God, and employed in the service of Satan. {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 7}

So going back to the seven thunders. This mystery was to be sealed until just before the close of probation, for the only item specified in the book of Revelation to be sealed, are the seven thunders. Bible quote:

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Now are the seven thunders to be sealed forever? Is there a purpose to them? Just before the close of probation, the command is given to not seal them any longer. Bible Quote:

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

In the following verse 11 you see the close of probation, so before the close of probation, verse 10, we have a command to not seal, therefore to the student of prophecy (which we are all required to be, see first quote) this understanding will be revealed.

Are the books of Daniel and Revelation related? SOP Quote:

The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. {7BC 971.5}

If the books of Daniel and Revelation are one, then there must be a relationship between one and the other. And if this is true, does the book of Daniel specify anything about an increase of knowledge in the end? Bible quote:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So at the "the time of the end" there will be an increase of knowledge according to Daniel. And the book of Revelation agrees! Just before the close of probation there is unsealing of the seven thunders or an increase of knowledge on what they are. These two books are in perfect agreement just as the Lord has designed.

So what are the Seven Thunders?

So first we see that when the seven thunders were first uttered was during the proclamation of the first and second angels message.

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {7BC 971.6}

We are clearly told by the spirit of prophecy that the proclamation of the first and second angels message was given between 1840-44:

The truths that we received in 1841, ‘42, ‘43, and ‘44 are now to be studied and proclaimed. The messages of the first, second, and third angels will in the future be proclaimed with a loud voice. They will be given with earnest determination and in the power of the Spirit. Manuscript Releases, volume 15, 371.

All the messages given from 1840–1844 are to be made forcible now, for there are many people who have lost their bearings. The messages are to go to all the churches. Manuscript Releases, volume 21, 437

So what does 1840 through 1844 have to do us now at the time of the end?

After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time. {7BC 971.4}

So not only were the seven thunders uttered and did there work between 1840 through 1844 but at the time of the end or just before the close of probation the seven thunders will be disclosed in their order!

And who exactly uttered the seven thunders? Bible quote:

Revelation 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

And spirit of prophecy:

The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy had waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth. {7BC 971.3}

So the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ himself uttered the seven thunders, and when He roars like a Lion, He is showing His power and authority.

The seven thunders were uttered between 1840-44 and will be repeated or disclosed again at the end of time just before the close of probation.

Now I'm going to stop here for a very important reason.

The pen of inspiration has told us in the following quote:

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events . . . {7BC 971.6}

The seven thunders are "events". Has the Lord given us any special light or warnings regarding "events" for the end time? SOP quote:

So in the prophecies the future is opened before us as plainly as it was opened to the disciples by the words of Christ. The events connected with the close of probation and the work of preparation for the time of trouble, are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed. Satan watches to catch away every impression that would make them wise unto salvation, and the time of trouble will find them unready. {GC 594.1}
When God sends to men warnings so important that they are represented as proclaimed by holy angels flying in the midst of heaven, He requires every person endowed with reasoning powers to heed the message. The fearful judgments denounced against the worship of the beast and his image (Revelation 14:9-11), should lead all to a diligent study of the prophecies to learn what the mark of the beast is, and how they are to avoid receiving it. But the masses of the people turn away their ears from hearing the truth and are turned unto fables. The apostle Paul declared, looking down to the last days: "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:3. That time has fully come. The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love. {GC 594.2}

Satan is doing everything in his power so that we might not understand these important events proclaimed by Jesus Christ Himself as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

Now, is it a small thing to go against the Word of God?

These important events are salvational! The understanding of the SEVEN THUNDERS is SALVATIONAL! and they "are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed."

Brothers and Sisters, I pray that you might understand the importance of the light that God has given.