T:Our knowledge doesn't save us, but our response to the Holy Spirit's pleading can result in our salvation.

D:But you still leave out the fact that we are CREDITED with Christ's dying to our sins, and giving us His righteousness.

T:I explained why the argument was not one of silence. It was based on a quote from the SOP:

D:None of those quotes say there would have been no need for an atonement. All it says is that Lucifer was not immediately cast out, that he was given space to repent. It's still an argument built on silence.

Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. (GC 496)

T:Since Lucifer understood the character of God, and His goodness, the sacrifice of Christ would have done nothing for him. So he was simply offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.

D:That is built upon your concept that the wages of sin is not death.

It is commonly thought that the connection between sin and death is imply that if we don’t repent of our sins God will kill us. Often no actual, intrinsic relationship is discerned between sin and death. But even a casual consideration of Scripture on this point persuades us otherwise. Notice just these few examples (quotes Gal. 6:7, 8; Rom. 6:16, 21-23; Rom. 8:6; Rom. 8:13; Prov. 8:36; James 1:15)

D:I'm really not that interested in Fifield.

He is in conflict with scripture and EGW.

T:I've never seen this argument presented by anyone but me. If you could provide me with a link to someone else presenting it, I'd certainly like to see it.

D:It was first presented to me when I was a student in an Adventist University, quite a few years back, by a professor who required us to read G. Maxwell's book and another book by some guy whose book I found anything BUT edifying (can't remember his name, which is probably a good thing) -- this isn't the first time I've been exposed to this reasoning -- it's being taught in our higher Educational systems.

When a person builds a whole theology upon a certain premise that premise should rest on KNOWN facts not on SILENCE.

Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.

such as Anslem explained

I have no idea who Anslem even is.
My beliefs don't come from any "Anslem".

I gave you SCRIPTURE that clearly point out the meaning of the scrificial system, you skipped over them as if they were written by Anslem??????

In the sacrificial offering, offered by the Jews, was seen a symbol of Christ, whose blood was to be shed for the salvation of the world. In the sacrificial system the truth of the atonement was to be impressed upon the world, that all might know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Many have wondered why it was that God appointed so many sacrifices in the old dispensation; but it was to teach the world in ever-bleeding sacrifices concerning Christ, the victim of man's transgressions. The offering for sin was a most solemn, sacred offering, and was placed upon the altar with impressive ceremony, and every detail was explained by the priest to the people, that they might understand that the Son of God was to be made an offering for their sins. This is the central truth of the plan of salvation, and it should be often repeated in the hearing of both believers and unbelievers. {ST, August 28, 1893 par. 8}.

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

There's no way this can be true. I'll demonstrate this a couple of different ways. First of all, let's look again at the DA statement:

PP431 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," even so was the Son of man "lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14, 15. All who have ever lived upon the earth have felt the deadly sting of "that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9. The fatal effects of sin can be removed only by the provision that God has made. The Israelites saved their lives by looking upon the uplifted serpent. That look implied faith. They lived because they believed God's word, and trusted in the means provided for their recovery. So the sinner may look to Christ, and live. He receives pardon through faith in the atoning sacrifice.

What a strange symbol of Christ was that likeness of the serpents which stung them. This symbol was lifted on a pole, and they were to look to it, and be healed. So Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. He came as the sin-bearer. . . . {SD 222.2}

As the sting of the serpent was certain death, unless the sufferer would avail himself of the remedy provided; so, also, is sin deadly in its effects, unless men look unto Christ, and believe in the merits of his blood.{ST, October 28, 1880 par. 17}

God revealed to Moses that through a sin offering the guilt of sin could be taken away.

“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life” (Lev. 17:11).

Oh, but it is true PRAISE THE LORD.

Christ took our sins upon Himself and became sin for us and died the death penalty in our place.

Why do you think a "snake" was placed on that pole.
The Bible is explicit as to what the "serpent" symbolizes.

We don't just die to sin by "appreciation".
It takes more than that.
We need to accept the fact that Christ credits His death to our sin as our death to sin, or we will never experience "living in newness of life" with Him.

The same healing, life-giving message is now sounding. It points to the uplifted Saviour upon the shameful tree. Those who have been bitten by that old serpent, the devil, are bidden to look and live. . . . Look alone to Jesus as your righteousness and your sacrifice. As you are justified by faith, the deadly sting of the serpent will be healed. (Sons and Daughters of God, page 222;ellipses original)

Israel had sinned and were dying -- the poisonous serpents rightly represented Satan and his demons filling them with the poison of distrust and sin.

Please not the recurring point in the preceding verses:
• Through Christ we receive “atonement”; we are made one with God.
• The purpose of the substitutionary death of Christ is to “bring us to God”; not Him to us. God has demonstrated His reconciled position toward us in Christ.
• Through sin we have gone “astray”; but through the sacrifice of Christ we “are not returned” to God.
• The love of Christ, revealed in His death, causes us to cease living for self and to start living for Him; we are reestablished in the circle of selfless, other-centered love through the atoning death of Christ….

Why would Moses lift up a brazen serpent?
Because CHRIST BECAME SIN FOR US and died in our place,
AND BY ACCEPTING THAT we live!

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.(DA 176)

But we MUST RECOGNIZE that it is never OUR righteousness that grants us salvation, we must accept Christ's righteousness.

We must accept Christ's atoning death FOR OUR SINS, for there is no forgiveness anyway else.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. (Luke 18)

we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins

God revealed to Moses that through a sin offering the guilt of sin could be taken away.

“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life” (Lev. 17:11).

(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

"By pledging His own life Christ has made Himself responsible for every man and woman on the earth. He stands in the presence of God, saying, "Father, I take upon Myself the guilt of that soul. It means death to him if he is left to bear it. If he repents he shall be forgiven. My blood shall cleanse him from all sin. I gave My life for the sins of the world." {HP 42.5}

God is approached through Jesus Christ, the Mediator, the only way through which He forgives sins. God cannot forgive sins at the expense of His justice, His holiness, and His truth. But He does forgive sins and that fully. There are no sins He will not forgive in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the sinner's only hope, and if he rests here in sincere faith, he is sure of pardon and that full and free. There is only one channel and that is accessible to all, and through that channel a rich and abundant forgiveness awaits the penitent, contrite soul and the darkest sins are forgiven. These lessons were taught to the chosen people of God thousands of years ago, and repeated in various symbols and figures, that the work of truth might be riveted in every heart, that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. . . . Justice demanded the sufferings of man; but Christ rendered the sufferings of a God. He needed no atonement of suffering for Himself; [He had no sin of His own] all His sufferings were for us; all His merits and holiness were open to fallen man, presented as a gift. {FLB 102.4}

The significance of the blood is that it represents that life. Christ gave Himself for us. He died for our sins. That's what the blood represents.

So how does Christ's giving His life for us save us? It does so by drawing us to God.

I think you may not have understood what "it" is. Here's what you said:



The last sentence is what I was demonstrating cannot be true. There are many who are saved who do not have the idea that "Christ credits His death to our sin as our death to sin," many who would have no clue as to what this even meant. No way is it necessary to accept this fact to experience living in newness of life. There are no inspired statements that suggest this.

The serpent question is an interesting one. The common idea is that the serpent on the pole represents sin. I have a friend who thinks the serpent on the pole was actually crushed, a la Gen. 3:15, and that the representation was one of the serpent being crushed by Satan. I know we have a mental image of the cadusis symbol, but I'm not aware of anything in inspiration to back that up.

Regarding what the snake being lifted up represented:



The lifting up of the snake pointed to the healing that one would receive from its deadly bite through Christ. Sin is like poison, killing its victim. By beholding Christ, we are healed from its deadly sting.



This is right! Sin is a poison that kills us. As such, it's hardly necessary for God to do something additional to punish those who do it. This would make about as much sense as punishing someone for taking deadly poison by burning him.

Once we understand that sin is lethal, everything falls into place. This is the point Ty Gibson was making.



The circle of selfless, other-centered love is what Ellen White refers to as "the law of life for the universe" in the first chapter of "The Desire of Ages."



No, not by accepting that, but by accepting Him.



"His love is drawing us to Himself." It is Christ that heals us, not believing is some specific theory of the atonement.



We receive Christ's righteousness by receiving Him. He is "the Lord our righteousness." We don't need to adhere to some specific view of the atonement to receive Him.



We don't have to hold to some specific view of the atonement to do this. The love of God shining from the cross leads us to repentance. If we respond, God saves us; it's as simple as that. There's no need for some specific theology on the atonement to do this:





which means just what DA 176 lays out.