Do you think looking to the cross and seeing Christ taking our sins upon Himself and dying in our place so "justice and mercy" both remain as part of God's character, is "missing" Jesus?

Is accepting Christ's death and merits in our behalf, and seeing it as HIM opening the door to us for salvation, releasing us from the condemnation of the law which our transgressions incurred, as "missing Jesus"?

Is looking to Christ as our heavenly High Priest Who is interceding for us, "missing Jesus"?

Is spending time at the cross and knowing there Christ has freed us from the bondage of sin, and that we can now consider ourselves dead to sin, because He took our sins and died, and realizing we are alive in Him raised with Him to newness of life, "missing Jesus"?

Is the new live of walking daily in humble obedience and submission to His will, relying upon Him each hour of each day, "missing Jesus"?

Are you agreeing with Tom, who denies that the blood Christ shed was not necessary for God to grant FORGIVENESS of sin?

Are you agreeing with Tom who disagrees that we account ourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ, because Christ died our death, and rose again to give us that new life.

What does it mean to "look to Jesus our Savior" if all there is at the cross is a "demonstration" of love, IF it really wasn't needed to forgive sin?

I believe it was necessary.

Think of the millions before the cross -- they didn't have that demonstration, yet there were many who still had faith in God and knew God in a way that we would do well to emulate!

originally by teresa: yes! yes! yes! that is what was missing!! ive been reading various articles by egw tonight and they are so full of Jesus. it is studying all that Christ has done for us, from coming down from heaven to the cross that saves us if we surrender/submit to Him.

cold, dry presentations of symbols and theories do not, can not touch the heart. they dont show us anything better than ourselves. they dont show us how far superior God is to us and how far, so very far, we miss the mark!!

[quote=dedication]We don't just die to sin by "appreciation".
It takes more than that.
We need to accept the fact that Christ credits His death to our sin as our death to sin, or we will never experience "living in newness of life" with Him.[quote]


The last sentence is what I was demonstrating cannot be true. There are many who are saved who do not have the idea that "Christ credits His death to our sin as our death to sin," many who would have no clue as to what this even meant. No way is it necessary to accept this fact to experience living in newness of life. There are no inspired statements that suggest this.

i dont know how you read this to warrant your response.

Tom's arguing for one atonement theory over all the others - and allowing bits of each theory, too, to be fair - while Dedication and I are pointing to Scripture itself and saying that eg. Rom 6:4, with eg. 2 Cor 5:14b, teaches surrendering to Jesus is dying to sin by his death on the cross, experienced by us - heart of stone for heart of flesh - by grace through faith. Tom objects, it appears, pretty firmly too.

What of this spiritual, leaving sin, angle to justification and newness of life? Do we, can we actually link to Jesus by faith without dying to sin and self by his cross?

Don't be silly, Tom: we know of those who'll be saved without ever hearing of a Bible, let alone Jesus, because God himself knows their conscience and gives them adequate light which they accept and believe.

But even they cannot be saved without Jesus being their Saviour, in God's eyes, since God views Jesus as their substitute.

How do you propose, otherwise - since you are either completely cancelling Dedication's last sentence you quoted or possibly limiting it to people who've studied a Bible, etc, that we die daily to sin & self as we follow Jesus? You said her statement "cannot be true", so how are we to die daily????...Does her statement even apply to Bible students - ie. any normally-informed believer?

D:We don't just die to sin by "appreciation".
It takes more than that.
We need to accept the fact that Christ credits His death to our sin as our death to sin, or we will never experience "living in newness of life" with Him.

T:The last sentence is what I was demonstrating cannot be true. There are many who are saved who do not have the idea that "Christ credits His death to our sin as our death to sin," many who would have no clue as to what this even meant. No way is it necessary to accept this fact to experience living in newness of life. There are no inspired statements that suggest this.

You know appreciating God's love in Christ isn't dying daily - it's just knowing the truth of God: the Devil does that, too, but it does save him!

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 171, 172)

(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

He can take the penalty for their transgression.

"By pledging His own life Christ has made Himself responsible for every man and woman on the earth. He stands in the presence of God, saying, "Father, I take upon Myself the guilt of that soul. It means death to him if he is left to bear it. If he repents he shall be forgiven. My blood shall cleanse him from all sin. I gave My life for the sins of the world." {HP 42.5}

The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us.(MH 71)

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

THAT IS THE ISSUE -- CHRIST TOOK OUR PENALTY so we could partake of His righteousness.

It's DEFINITELY NOT against our need to accept Christ in our lives in order to be saved -- of course WE NEED TO ACCEPT CHRIST, we need to accept HIM and HIS MERITS, and HIS death in our place, and His resurrection. "There is no other name by which we must be saved."

Now Christ is in the heavenly sanctuary, which He entered WITH HIS OWN BLOOD to minister as High Priest.

T:The significance of the blood is that it represents that life. Christ gave Himself for us. He died for our sins. That's what the blood represents.

So how does Christ's giving His life for us save us? It does so by drawing us to God.

R:You still ignore the part that Christ took upon HIMSELF our sins, and died in our place.

Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed." (DA 25)

His death makes forgiveness possible. His resurrection brings justification. Your concepts are only HALF of the picture.

Are you agreeing with Tom who disagrees that we account ourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ, because Christ died our death, and rose again to give us that new life.