Mike,
I still see the following:
1. Working your way to heaven
2. No Bible verses to back up the claim of eating chicken, or fish will prevent you from going to heaven using the Bible.

No one has the right to say that yo uwill go to heaven if you eat broccoli and the fish eating Christian is hell bound. That is not Biblical at all. Show me in the Bible where that is found.
God Bless,
Will

Tom, I agree with you, The promises of God apply to us the moment we are born again and believe them through faith. Others seem to disagree. They might apply them to certain defects of character, but not to all of them. They seem to feel there are certain sins we do not overcome until after years of gradually outgrowing them. By the way, the reason I posted so many promises which say the same thing is because some people tend to twist isolated promises to serve a lie. But it's harder to get away with that in light of a multitude of testimonies. Some still manage to figure out a way though.

Hi Mike,
I understand clearly that it is not by faith alone, nor by works alone. That is not the issue, but the issue is the condemnation of a person due to them eating turkey, fish or chicken. That is what its about.
Too much of anything is harmful, and if it is unfit for human consumption such as infected meats then don't touch it. Waving a stick of "not listening to Counsel" which would result in making of none effect the Word of God is akin to arm twisting. God will not banish you from heaven because you ate fish! You will not go to heaven if you are not saved plain and simple. JOhn 3:16 cuts right to it quickly. Naturally this doesn;t mean anyone can live a life of decandence, and their salvation is not negated by eating fish.. You will not lose your salvation for eating fish, or turkey, or chicken. It is not Biblical plain and simple. I am looking for Bible verses to support the eating of fish and chicken and it affecting your Salvation i.e. You will not go to heaven.
God Bless,
Will

Mike
Yes, the question is indeed whether what we eat will bring us closer or further from God. The bible indicates that such which is eaten with good concience will bring us neither closer nor further while you say this has changed since 150 +- years ago.

You claim that the health message is the right arm of the 3AM. How can this be? The chapter talking about the 3AM does not mention food, it talks about worship, unless of course you see Gods wine of wrath as a foodstuff. Health may be, or even is, the method which SDA has used and in many places is using to bring the 3AM to people. Is this the same as being the right arm I wonder?

Further I notice that what you here call unclean and unfit for consumption, considdering that we here are talking bird and fish, is something the bible never calls unclean or unfit for consumption. Some birds, though perhaps not chickens, where what the poor should bring as an offering before God. Do you call such unclean which God in those days would accept as an offering?

If we refuse Gods will for us, then its agreed that such a choise is like locking one self out of Gods presence. The question here is wether Gods will for us took a 180 degree turn on this particular issue at a sertain point in time. This unless someone can show that eating no meat whatsoever is a natural step in Gods process of showing us His will. That would require this person to show a process going from much meat (in egypt for instance) to meat of a sertain kind only (at sinai) to, here comes the apparent problem. Is the consumption of clean meats further restricted in the prophets or NT as would be the case in a gradual revealing of veganism? It does not seem so but maybe someone has researched it and can show if and where I (supposedly) am wrong.

/Thomas

Regarding the health message, the general principle is that since God communicates with us through the mind, we should take care of our minds so that we can understand what He is saying to us. This is especially important in the context of the last days in which we live.

I never understood the Health Message in the area of a vegetarian diet versus a non-vegetarian diet as being a salvation issue, however, I remember that EGW stated that a vegetarian believer and follower of Christ would live to be translated, whereas, God out of mercy would not suffer a non-vegetarian believer and follower of Christ to go through the time of trouble, as his body wouldn't be in any condition to make it through that ordeal.

In other words, a non-vegetarian believer would be laid to rest prior to the time of trouble to be resurrected at the Second Coming.

I don't recall reading anywhere in her writings that a non-vegetarian believer and follower of Christ would be lost.

If necessary, I will need to do some research for EGW references and quotes.

Okay. Enough said. Unless someone else wants to share more quotes regarding the necessity of a vegan diet, during the closing scenes of Earth's history (I'm not talking today, right now), I won't say any more. Please read the book Counsels on Diet and Foods to see for yourself what Sister White said about it. Our body is the temple of God, what we do with it directly effects His dwelling place. The choice is ours.

When the choices include fruits, nuts, grains, vegetables and legumes - I can testify that meat is not necessary, indeed, the medical journals are proving over and over again that not only is meat not necessary, it's also one of the leading causes of cancer and heart disease. I'm not going to put anything in my body, if better choices are available, that can rob me of my health, especially since my family has a history of cancer and heart disease.

The Bible condones eating fruit, but I'm not going to eat fruit that has gone bad or has been proven to cause long term illnesses. I feel the same about meat. There is no safe meat, not any more, and hasn't been for many years. Besides, people who insist on eating beef, because it is considered clean in the Bible, usually do not eat it kosher, according to the Bible - no blood, no fat. Many animals die of their accord. To eat it is to sin. Do they know if the animal they're eating was killed properly? Do they care? Do they bother to ask? If not, they are not in harmony with God's law.

CH 480
The Lord has been sending us line upon line, and if we reject these principles, we are not rejecting the messenger who teaches them, but the One who has given us the principles. {CH 480.1}

CME 31, 32
Reform, continual reform, must be kept before the people, and by our example we must enforce our teachings. True religion and the laws of health go hand in hand. It is impossible to work for the salvation of men and women without presenting to them the need of breaking away from sinful gratifications, which destroy the health, debase the soul, and prevent divine truth from impressing the mind. Men and women must be taught to take a careful review of every habit and every practice, and at once put away those things that cause an unhealthy condition of the body, and thus cast a dark shadow over the mind.-Counsels on Health, p. 445. {CME 31.4}

Those who act as teachers are to be intelligent in regard to disease and its causes, understanding that every action of the human agent should be in perfect harmony with the laws of life. The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation and the salvation of the world. Men and women should be informed in regard to the human habitation, fitted up by our Creator as His dwelling place, and over which He desires us to be faithful stewards. "For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."--Review and Herald, Nov. 12, 1901. {CME 32.1}

CME 35, 36,
As a people we have been given the work of making known the principles of health reform. There are some who think that the question of diet is not of sufficient importance to be included in their evangelistic work. But such make a great mistake. God's Word declares, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." The subject of temperance, in all its bearings, has an important place in the work of salvation.-- Testimonies, Vol. 9, p. 112. {CME 35.4}

Edit: included the quotes from Sister White.

[ November 04, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

My issue here isn't whether we shouldn't eat meat whether beef, chicken, etc. but, if a person chooses to eat these and other clean meat, it is a salvation issue, whether it is a salvation issue in that a person who does so will lose their salvation.

My thoughts are that it is not a salvation issue. There will be consequences, however, it isn't a salvation issue.

Testimony Studies on Diet and Foods
Diet and Morals----PG- 26

2 T.--352
" If ever there was a time when the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. Meat should not be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower passions, and has a tendency to deaden
the moral powers. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to Heaven. The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled. gratification of taste should not be consulted irrespective of physical, intellectual, or moral health."

Counsels on Diet and Foods

- Flesh Meats (Proteins Continued) -PG- 380

Preparing for Translation

Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view, and endeavor to work steadily toward it. I
cannot think that in the practice of flesh eating we are in harmony with the light which God has been pleased to give us. All who are connected with our health institutions especially should be educating themselves to subsist on fruits, grains, and vegetables. If we move from principle in these things, if we as Christian reformers educate our own taste, and bring our diet to God's plan, then we may exert an influence upon others in this matter, which will be pleasing to God."