It was clear to David, and he read only the Old Testament. The Pentateuch would have been his main course of study.

I suggest you read, "The Everlasting Covenant" by E. J. Waggoner. This book is on the Gospel in the Pentateuch. It's almost 400 pages long. It references all parts of Scripture, but the primary emphasis is on the Pentateuch. It is full of Gospel lessons, one after the other.

It is our blindness and hardness of heart that causes us not to see the Gospel. "Sinai and Calvary" is a wonderful chapter that brings this out.

I recall reading things Waggoner pointed out in the book and thinking, "No way! That can't be in Scripture!," but it was. The Lord gave him a wonderful gift to do the very thing you're having difficulty with, to recognize the Gospel in the writings of Moses.

David was shown things through the gift of prophecy. Are you suggesting it requires the gift of prophecy to see both aspects clearly in the Pentateuch?

Yes, Waggoner was able to see wonderful things in the Pentateuch because he possessed the advantage of hindsight.

BTW, the following passage is very insightful:

It is the voice of Christ that speaks through patriarchs and prophets, from the days of Adam even to the closing scenes of time. The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New. It is the light from the prophetic past that brings out the life of Christ and the teachings of the New Testament with clearness and beauty. The miracles of Christ are a proof of His divinity; but a stronger proof that He is the world's Redeemer is found in comparing the prophecies of the Old Testament with the history of the New. {DA 799.2}

Do you agree with the bolded part above?

No, MM, it's not through hindsight that Waggoner saw the things he saw. Just sight. They're right in the text. I suggest you take a look at it! "The Everlasting Covenant."

It's rather interesting, the SOP tells us that God sent us the message He did through Jones and Waggoner as a means to open our eyes (the "eye salve" referred to in Rev. 3). As she pointed out, it's not new truth, but truth that wasn't seen.

Sounds like Waggoner's help could be very beneficial.

Regarding David, I simply gave him as an example. Surely the Holy Spirit enabled him to see insights, but the insights were in the text. No, one doesn't need to be a prophet to understand Scripture, but one does need the Holy Spirit. He can open your eyes to see the same things David saw!

Do you agree with Ellen that the OT reveals Jesus just as clearly as does the NT? If so, then yes, we should be able to see the character of God revealed just as clearly in the OT as we do in Jesus in the NT. However, where in the Pentateuch does Moses clearly explain the two aspects of this thread? In the past you've cited the serpent on the pole as proof. Proof to who? The Jews at the time? Or, to the average Gentile reading it in 2009?

If you're going ask an opinion regarding something Ellen White said, please provide a direct quote.

Just to recap, your position is that neither in the New Testament, nor the Old, is Jesus Christ clearly revealed, as far as the meaning of His death is concerned, correct?

WOW! I read the first seven pages of this thread and was amazed at how people talk past each other!

People were on totally different wave lengths!

On reading the last pages it seems things haven't gotten any better!

It's not that people didn't make some good points, just that they weren't communicating on the same wave length, and obviously misunderstanding each other.

(And don't go expecting me to "quote" all the misunderstandings I'm refering to, anyone with an objective mind can read through and see it for themselves)

Actually I think MM's initial question is one that I've often wondered about myself.



So, -- let's place ourselves in the shoes of a person living in -- let's say in the days of the judges when people like Ruth and Naomi and Boaz were alive.

They had the books of Moses. But Moses himself, as well as Joshua had long passed off the scene of earth's history, their verbal instruction was long past, Israel had done some rather serious apostasying and had some revivals, and verbal tradition can get muddled even under the best of circumstances and these weren't the best of circumstances. The later prophets, like Isaiah, were yet future.

How could these people living at that time, (in the days of Ruth, Boaz, Niomi etc, verify what was truth or not concerning the coming Messiah, BY SCRIPTURE?




I agree the sacrificial and feast day ceremonies were depictions in great detail of what Christ would do.

Yet, Where did Moses (not Isaiah, Paul, or EGW) explain why Jesus had to die or that the animal sacrifices symbolized His death?

Remember this is refering to scripture, -- something the people could read and look to, to see what truth is.

Dedication, You are very right. People living at that time, (in the days of Ruth, Boaz, Niomi etc), needed to know about Jesus and the truth with scriptures at hand?

Mike, you have posted a very important question indeed.

Jesus said that all scriptures testify of Him. Jn 5:39
Scriptures in that time was the old testament.

Thinking about it, Abraham didn't possess any scriptures. However, he knew the meaning of the sacrifice when God ask him to sacrifice Isaac. He knew(or had faith) that God was going to provide a sacrifice.

After his experience, Abraham clearly understood the sacrifice will be God's own son. Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and was glad.

Abraham didn't have any scriptures and I'm sure that a lot of the prophecy given in Eden was conveyed from father to son got lost through the generations. However, Abraham was taught of God. Every man has that priviledge even thought they have no sciptures. Anyway it's good to have scriptures especially when confusion increases. Abraham had the most intimate relationship and communication with God that few men ever known to the point of seeing the day of Jesus death. I'm sure Abraham knew the reason of the sacrifice and the great controversy.

The same with Moses. I don't know how much was handed from generation to generation to Moses, however, he did know a lot of details including Abraham experiences.

Ruth Boaz and Naomi's time, they had access to quite a bit of scriptures compared to Abraham and Moses. Also they could be taught of God like Abraham and Moses. God will reveal truth(Jesus) to those who seek.

As time increase, written testimonies (scriptures) increased, however, did it increase the faith? Not really. Why?

Because reality is that many do not seek Truth(Jesus). Most people don't seek to be taught of God but seek other man's opinions or their own. Jesus talks about that in Jn 5:39-47

Jesus makes very clear that if they(Jews) believed in Moses(search Moses scriptures and be taught of God), they would of beleived in Jesus because he(Moses) wrote of Jesus. However, the Jews believed not in the same Moses that Jesus knew, But a different Moses that the Jews had fashioned throught their scholars.

Are we going in the same direction as the Jews? Are we seeking studying scriptures via what others say about Jesus while we should bring our own questions to God and let God teach us Himself?

God makes very clear that we are to be taught of God and not by men.


Is the point that it wasn't explicitly explained that the animal sacrifice was symbolic of Jesus death on the cross? That God lacked in revealing His truth? God chose it to be written as is for in His wisdom He knew it was the best. Maybe God wanted people to search scriptures and what was implicit to pray so He Himself would have a personal communication with a person because He wanted to teach them in all things.

The cultures had an understanding of sacrifice which was built into the culture. There was a whole world view that existed among the different cultures. There's all sorts of imagery that goes right past us, but they would have gotten as easily as we would get references to T.V., the internet, or cell phones. So one thing to bear in mind is that there was a great deal of meaning, of which we have no clue, in the sacrificial system itself.

This point is certainly well taken.

Did you know that even though well over 2000 years lay between Abraham and Adam, the oral transmission really didn't separate them that much.


Adam still lived for quite a few years after Methuselah was born. Adam was about 690 years old when Methuselah born, thus Methuselah would have had 240 years to visit with Adam before Adam died at the age of 930 years. Methuselah was Enoch's son so he would have had the instruction and guidance from that godly father as well.

Methusalah was Noah's grandfather.
He was there with Noah all during the time of the building of the ark. So Noah would have heard all the things that Adam and Enoch had taught Methusalah. Noah's sons would have had the opportunity to hear Methusalah as well. Especially Shem who was the more spiritually inclined of the three sons of Noah.

Methusalah died the same year as the flood, just prior to its coming.

After the flood.
We have Noah living another 350 years after the flood.

Shem was 98 years old at the time of the flood. He lived another 502 years after the flood to the age of 600.

If you add up the ages in Gen. 11 you'll find that Abraham was born about 300 years after the flood.

That would mean Noah was still alive during the first 50 years of Abraham's life.
Shem was alive during Abraham's entire lifetime!!!
Abraham lived only 175 years.

Shem would have been 400 years old when Abraham was born, and outlived him by 25 years!


So the point here, is that Abraham had a pretty straight line to Adam. If the followers of the true God met together and learned from the ancient men, they could have known MUCH!


These are the MAIN links (of course there were others alive during the same time) -- but these would have been the main links.

Adam -- Methuselah -- NOAH & Shem -- Abraham!