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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10741
09/09/04 12:54 AM
09/09/04 12:54 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm not suggesting we judge whether someone has gone over the line or not. If God were to tell us our [some loved one] was lost (i.e., they had committed the unpardonable sin), would we stop loving them? What would are reaction be? Would we start hating them? Or would we grieve?
Is God any less loving than we are? He records what His emotions are when one of His children are lost, "How can I give you up? My compassion is stirred within me."
If we think God will start hating him if we don't obey Him, we are doing God a great disservice. God is as He revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, and there is no hint that Jesus hated anybody. We are told there were tears in His voice when He rebuked the pharisees, and He prayed for those who were crucifying Him.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10742
09/09/04 12:56 AM
09/09/04 12:56 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif) Amen, Marie!
I don't think anybody is questioning that fact.
Frm reading Tom's post, I thought of other interesting texts quoted below where it says in Exodus 8:32 that Pharoah hardened his own heart and then in Exodus 9:12 that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
quote:
Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
So which is it? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or did God harden Pharoah's heart?
This may help us to better understand the love-hate aspect of this topic on whether or not God's love is conditional or unconditional.
If we keep in mind that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits, I think the answer to your question will present itself.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10743
09/09/04 02:25 AM
09/09/04 02:25 AM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
U.S.
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Who is to blame for his hardened heart according to what all the Bible teaches us?
The Bible teaches us in many places that we were made with a choice for good or for evil. From Eve and Adam right on down, it is our choice.
So who hardened his heart? He had to have done it just as sure as we are the ones that harden our hearts over things. It was his choice and it is our choice.
I feel that God allows it. I do feel that in the old testiment men did feel God was to blame for this and that. But it is my understanding that God allows it. He does not make choices for us. He woes us to Himself that we may have a chance to make good choices, but He don't make choices for us.
I can understand that one can go a step farther and say that many old testiment people thought God did hate the wicked. I can see this possibilty also in the old Testiment. But I am not so fast to do away with texts when there are other explanations. If we do, we could go on and on and soon find us without a Bible to go by.
I am not saying I am right in my stand. But I feel the explanation could be the answer. It is a hard call. It is hard for me to believe that God ever hates anyone. I don't want to believe that. But we can't just change the meaning of all texts that we can't understand. We really need the leading of the Holy Spirit so we can know what the answers are.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10744
09/09/04 01:45 PM
09/09/04 01:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
ouch.
quote:
The conditions of obtaining mercy of God, are simple and just and reasonable.
...
Those who have not humbled their souls before God in acknowledging their guilt, have not yet fulfilled the first condition of acceptance. If we have not experienced that repentance which is not to be repented of, and have not with true humiliation of soul and brokenness of spirit confessed our sins, abhorring our iniquity, we have never truly sought for the forgiveness of sin; and if we have never sought, we have never found the peace of God. The only reason why we do not have remission of sins that are past is that we are not willing to humble our hearts and comply with the conditions of the word of truth.
...
It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions, to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin.
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The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness
Above found in Steps to Christ
I re-read the above post and quote by danielw which isn't speaking about conditions for God's love, but conditions for God's mercy, acceptance, truth, and pardon, but nowhere is God's love listed as a condition to be a recipient of His love for the whole wide world is already a recipient of God's love as stated in John 3:16 in which God so loved the world [everybody in the world] that.....
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10745
09/10/04 03:22 AM
09/10/04 03:22 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Amen, Marie!
I don't think anybody is questioning that fact.
Frm reading Tom's post, I thought of other interesting texts quoted below where it says in Exodus 8:32 that Pharoah hardened his own heart and then in Exodus 9:12 that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
quote:
Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
So which is it? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or did God harden Pharoah's heart?
This may help us to better understand the love-hate aspect of this topic on whether or not God's love is conditional or unconditional.
If we keep in mind that God is often presented in Scripture as doing that which He permits, I think the answer to your question will present itself.
I think you're absolutely correct in your analysis of what it means when it says that God hardened Pharoh's heart. God allowed it. Similarly when it says that God killed Saul, that's what it means. And when it says God moved David to number Israel. Many examples of this principle could be cited.
So how do we arive at this conclusion, even though the Bible directly says God killed Saul, for example? God gave us reason to analyze His word. By asking intelligent questions, and studying His Word to see how He reveals Himself, we come to conclusions, trying to piece things together the best we can.
Regarding what it means when it says God hates certain people, why not follow the same principle you have followed above? You say you don't want to believe God hates anybody. Then don't!
The clearest revelation of God is in Jesus Christ. He said to pray for those who despitefully use you and to love your enemies. He prayed for forgiveness for those who were killing Him. Tears were in His voice when He denounced the Pharisees, and there were no more wicked people than they.
The word "hate" can mean "prefer less", as Strong points out in his concordance. Examples of that are when Christ says we are unworthy to follow Him unless we hate our parents and siblings.
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence. His love is drawing all to Himself, and unless that love is rejected, the rejector will be saved.
Satan is the one who has presented God as one who will destroy you if you don't do His will. He presents a "God" with a dark side, but God reveals Himself in Christ. Can you imagine Christ hating (detesting) anyone? Is there any evidence that Christ ever hated (detested) anyone? To ask such a question is to answer it.
Christ loved the sinner, but hates the sin. "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10746
03/16/06 01:29 AM
03/16/06 01:29 AM
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Tom, Upon reviewing this old topic, it seems like you had the last word. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10747
03/16/06 02:59 AM
03/16/06 02:59 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I was going to respond, "Not anymore." but that doesn't work, does it?
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10748
03/17/06 12:49 PM
03/17/06 12:49 PM
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Deceased Member (July 2009)
Full Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 302
Bishop, CA
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Brother Mark:
I was just going to read this topic, but when I came across one that you wrote on September 4, 2004 I had to say something.
Many things have been said here, but that post was one of the most inspiring to be written. I most liked about it was when you said:
"God's love is with purpose."
Yes everything God does through His love is with purpose. Many when they write about salvation and can relate that to conditions seem to separate salvation from love. Why? Because it is hard to accept the idea that there can be conditions in love.
But without His love there would be no salvation. His love set up a plan that would bring us home to be with Him for all eternity. There is a defined connection between God's love and His desire to save us.
His whole purporse in sending His Son was from His love for us and making a way for us to receive grace and life.
God is love, and yes there are no verses that says God is hate, because that is not His character. His character is in the foundation of love.
Psalms:
139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Whatever this "perfect hatred" that David was able to have I believe that God can have it as well. Since God is perfect, then He has a perfect love, then He must be able to have a perfect hate.
I believe that as we drawn nearer to the end days we will understand this as the wicked grown more evil and the saints grow more righteous.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
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Re: God's love not unconditional
[Re: liane]
#113892
05/31/09 04:51 AM
05/31/09 04:51 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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My father on the other hand never repented that I know of and told his family that my sister and I were liars. Therefore my contempt and hate towards him is still there. At one point in my life I went to my fathers grave to forgive him, not for him, because he would not know anyway, but for me.
The hate I felt towards him was consuming me and I had to release it before it destroyed me completely. I still hate him for what he did to us, how it messed up our lives and relationship with others, including God. By doing what I did that day I was able to release all that pain and give it to God. I leave to God his judgment of my Father. i so hope that you have gotten to the point where you now feel love and pity for him, where your heart breaks because he is more than likely eternally lost. i am almost there for those who have abused me in my childhood. it feels so much better than hating and blaming them. i want that unconditional love of God. i want it to permeate my being. i want, God forbid, that if someone is physically harming me all i can think of is how to reach them for God. i want it for those who are harming me in non-physical ways also. 2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. and yet he got up each time and went back over and over trying to reach people for God. why? the unconditional love of God which he now felt for those lost souls. Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: and for all eternity Jesus will suffer the loss of those who spit on Him, beat Him, mocked Him, stuck thorns on His head, nailed Him to a cross. He will mourn for those who cried, crucify Him. He will mourn for each and every pharisee that stalked His every move and made life hell for Him. unconditional love? just read the gospels and the desire of ages with the understanding of the Holy Spirit and there would be no question!
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
[Re: teresaq]
#113907
05/31/09 02:58 PM
05/31/09 02:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Nice thoughts, especially this: I want that unconditional love of God. I want it to permeate my being. I want, God forbid, that if someone is physically harming me all i can think of is how to reach them for God. I want it for those who are harming me in non-physical ways also. Beautiful. This is the spirit of Christ, to want good for those who do us evil.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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