distrust is automatic, yes. That death was required can be found from supporting texts which Rom 5 only alludes to with its rapid summary of the situation.

Ezek 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." That isn't talking about natural results of sin - the context is talking about suffering guilt and judgement for one's own actions. Grace is the fuller context, since there is a call in the chapter to turn from wickedness or face the charge!

Is God right to judge the unrepentant and destroy them in the day of judgement? That, I would say, is our holy God's personal priviledge, having given his only begotten Son for this sinful world. Grace aside, his holiness entitles him to act justly: the unrepentant, in view of the grace of God in Christ, are due the judgement on sin that the Lamb of God suffered in our stead.

Yes, we need a good Bible study laid out for us to use, to prove these truths, don't we - we want one, too!

We don't have time for restudying key Biblical words via alternative lines of thought from their root meanings, instead of a Bible study. We can't do both at the same time, especially as the ordinary meaning of "ransom" and "substitution" is what we know to be the truth. Let those who disagree do so elsewhere!

maybe you misunderstood? the question was how does that one particular verse justify the conclusion made?

as for Ezek 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." this seems clearly to be the context:it seems clearly to counter the idea that someone else should suffer for what one person has done.

this is the second point it is trying to get across:


that if we turn from our wicked ways we will live. if not we will die.

While Tom waits to philosophise, Teresa, and in anticipation of your own thoughts....

YES, Teresa, divinity IS OUR SUBSTITUTE!! AMEN!!!

Since deity is immortal..., what happened??! I agree that only humanity dying isn't just "not right" - IT'S NOT ENOUGH!! How about the Son of God, the Creator of the universe, the Author of life, dying in mortal flesh? The person of God's Son, not his immortal divinity, but the person himself, having become flesh with us, died as a man.

One has to go behind the nature of being (human/divine) and find the person: it's not impersonal, because it's oh so personal for God & him and each of us and every man & woman who's on this sinful planet.

To reiterate, in case I didn't make sense there: the deity of God's begotten Son could not die, but the person of God's Son, having become flesh with us, could die.

Right: Ja!

It's a little hidden...: look at v.18, as well, because...

In v.12 the "all have sinned" isn't an ongoing action, like our life habits of sinning are. It's a once in history event: either first time we each sinned - oh the memory is sad! - or it means, in connection with "by one man" and v.18 where Adam's in the spotlight again: all mankind sinned in Adam, but no-one other than Adam carries any guilt for his actions!

v.18 mentions, in relation to Adam's history

"judgement to condemnation came upon all men": I'm not forgetting Jesus' grace and righteousness given for "all men", but judgement to death came upon all men who have Adam's sinful nature. Jesus didn't redeem our sinful nature from this eternal condemnation of death - he redeemed us ourselves - persons not natures. Right?

v.12 there leads to v.18 and leaves Adam's posterity under judgement of death. v.12 isn't just death followed by one or other resurrection, but death without resurrection, too, should we each not accept the grace of what Jesus has done to our history and our fate, as per v.18.

D'u agree, or still not sure?

Amen, Amen & again: Amen!!!

That penalty which he absorbed for me, too, is God's judgement on sin, not sin's own fruits, from whichever quarter.

Jesus himself wasn't perturbed by the conspiracy of the Sanhedrin against him - he forgave even the Roman soldiers, who knew not what they were doing: He was anxious about being cut off from his holy Father, at whose will he, the Son of God, was dying, having submitted to God's will in Gethsemane.

Did Christ die the first or second death? Also if Christ had to die so God could forgive us then why could it not have happened when He was a baby? Why not just let Herod kill Him and get it over with? If someone starts telling you adulterous lies about your spouse, and you believe those lies, you might begin to mistrust your spouse even though they never did anything wrong. If you believe the lies to the point where you end up in the arms of someone else it could so happen that this person has HIV and you are infected. So now put your self in the place of your spouse because thats where God is. He has done nothing wrong and now you are terminal. Should He say "well you broke the vow now justice demand that I shoot you?" He has done nothing wrong but lies believed have led to behavior that results in death. With Sin it is always like this. When its said that God's justice demands death then some people who believe that God is love have problems with this tension. Did God send Jesus to die in order to save us from God's wrath?

so you are ageeing that we cannot come to that conclusion using that one particular verse?

so separation- possibly eternal- from the Father was the "penalty"?

if adam and eve had never sinned and had no access to the tree of life would they have died?

and, according to the bible examples, what is Gods wrath?

this one is a little bit scary. it is talking about those who have the truth but have in unrighteousness.


sorry, my brother, i detoured a bit from your thought. getting back on point, and the "wrath of God" mentioned in 1:18:


these seem like a couple of examples of the "wrath of God". i remember the first time i really saw 1:27. that told me i didnt need to do anything to my practicing homosexual brother/sister. they were already suffering the consequences and it was none of my business, except to try and gently, lovingly, bring them to the Lord, keeping in mind that i also am a sinner.

1:28 says to me that God gave people up to what they really wanted with 1:27 being an example of the consequences.