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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: dedication]
#114042
06/02/09 09:09 PM
06/02/09 09:09 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Great study, Dedication!
Yes, have also heard it said as "note of indebtedness", that was nailed to the cross. Very much so. A legal debt covered, so it can be forgiven because of that cancelling of the debt.
Since Jesus was made sin for us, to bear our guilt, what of the other aspect of sin dealt with in our redemption? What about sinful flesh, of which our nature consists? Isn't our sinful nature a physical debt note, irresistably destined either for the cross - tasting eternal destruction by grace - or ultimate, eternal destruction without saving grace? Didn't Jesus absolutely have to nail our sinful nature to the cross, being his very body?!
The cancelled debt note of Col 2 both our sinful record and our sinful nature, isn't it.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: Colin]
#114044
06/02/09 09:27 PM
06/02/09 09:27 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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Great study, Dedication!
Yes, have also heard it said as "note of indebtedness", that was nailed to the cross. Very much so. A legal debt covered, so it can be forgiven because of that cancelling of the debt.
Since Jesus was made sin for us, to bear our guilt, what of the other aspect of sin dealt with in our redemption? What about sinful flesh, of which our nature consists? Isn't our sinful nature a physical debt note, irresistably destined either for the cross - tasting eternal destruction by grace - or ultimate, eternal destruction without saving grace? Didn't Jesus absolutely have to nail our sinful nature to the cross, being his very body?!
The cancelled debt note of Col 2 both our sinful record and our sinful nature, isn't it. so are we to consider both the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries as some kind of courthouse? or is "legal debt", "penal" substitution, more in line with how we deal with breaking the law?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: teresaq]
#114047
06/02/09 09:47 PM
06/02/09 09:47 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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but the question was where is there judgment to condemnation in those verses, and as far as i can see there is none. the kjv added "judgment to". it isnt in the original, so we are just making up a phrase, seems to me. "you shall surely die." if you drink poison you shall surely die. if you jump in front of a speeding train you shall surely die. more examples could be given. so how do we turn "you shall surely die" into, "i will kill you" unless we have been trained to read that into the phrase? then we have this little nugget: When Adam and Eve realized how exalted and sacred was the law of God, the transgression of which made so costly a sacrifice necessary to save them and their posterity from utter ruin, they plead to die themselves, or to let them and their posterity endure the penalty of their transgression, rather than that the beloved Son of God should make this great sacrifice. The anguish of Adam was increased. He saw that his sins were of so great magnitude as to involve fearful consequences. And must it be that Heaven's honored Commander, who had walked with him, and talked with him, while in his holy innocence, whom angels honored and worshiped, must be brought down from his exalted position to die because of his transgression. Adam was informed that an angel's life could not pay the debt. The law of Jehovah, the foundation of his government in Heaven and upon earth, was as sacred as God himself; and for this reason the life of an angel could not be accepted of God as a sacrifice for its transgression. His law was of more importance in his sight than the holy angels around his throne. The Father could not abolish nor change one precept of his law to meet man in his fallen condition. But the Son of God, who had in unison with the Father created man, could make an atonement for man acceptable to God, by giving his life a sacrifice, and bearing the wrath of his Father. Angels informed Adam that, as his transgression had brought death and wretchedness, life and immortality would be brought to light through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. {1SP 50.2} in the sanctuary who killed the sacrificial victim? the person who had sinned or God? Yes, "judgement" isn't in the Greek, but does it not fit? In the whole verse condemnation for all men follows one transgression, and justification for life of all men follows one person's obedience. Both results are by God's judgement according to his law, aren't they? Do you know how "short on words" in word for word English this verse is?? You wondering whether "condemnation" can happen without a judgement that it should befall "all men"? Am trying to follow your thoughts, not just any apparent logic. Yes, the sinner slew the sacrifice, but God burned it with holy fire as an acceptable offering for sin to obtain forgiveness, by faith in the promised Messiah, right? You're keeping the whole daily and yearly services of the temple in mind aren't you, with how sin was transferred from confessor to sacrifice, to blood, to temple, till the end of the year, etc? Slaying the animal after confessing his sins onto it was the sinner's act of faith in the promised Messiah, in the temple service, not so? God wants the believer to participate in being saved by divine grace and righteousness, including partaking of the divine nature: how God deals with the wicked on judgement day will be a bit more detatched, won't it, and Rev 20 speaks of literal fire, for you?
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: teresaq]
#114052
06/02/09 09:53 PM
06/02/09 09:53 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Great study, Dedication!
Yes, have also heard it said as "note of indebtedness", that was nailed to the cross. Very much so. A legal debt covered, so it can be forgiven because of that cancelling of the debt.
Since Jesus was made sin for us, to bear our guilt, what of the other aspect of sin dealt with in our redemption? What about sinful flesh, of which our nature consists? Isn't our sinful nature a physical debt note, irresistably destined either for the cross - tasting eternal destruction by grace - or ultimate, eternal destruction without saving grace? Didn't Jesus absolutely have to nail our sinful nature to the cross, being his very body?!
The cancelled debt note of Col 2 both our sinful record and our sinful nature, isn't it. so are we to consider both the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries as some kind of courthouse? or is "legal debt", "penal" substitution, more in line with how we deal with breaking the law? Your questions are nearly systematic, Teresa, but they're good questions: yes, "we have an advocate with the Father" should we sin, who will forgive us all we confess. A courthouse? Yes, judgements are rendered on evidence and confessions of men, assessed by our Advocate. A graceous access to salvation from sin and guilt to obtain eternal life: yes. How familiar are you with the sanctuary services and their illustration of salvation? What reading have you done, generally? Just study Leviticus and similiar books or also read our scholars' various or any books?
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: Colin]
#114056
06/02/09 10:05 PM
06/02/09 10:05 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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or is "legal debt", "penal" substitution, more in line with how we deal with breaking the law? Great insight! I think God takes this into account in His dealings with us. That is, God takes into account our misunderstanding of things, and will speak to us in our language, even if that's wrong, in order to communicate ideas to us in a way that we can understand. The best example I know of this principle is in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man where Jesus was aware that many of His listeners believed in an immortal soul. So He told a story that made use of their false ideas. The SOP explains this. When I first understood this, it blew me away. It was different than I expected God to be. Tell a story predicated on false beliefs? How could that be possible. But the more I've thought about it, the more sense it makes. Our ideas and paradigm must of necessity be wrong; it's just a matter of degree. So if God is going to communicate with us in ways we can understand Him, He must do so in accordance with our wrong ideas and paradigm. As long as we are willing to follow, He can lead us to better and better ideas, and better paradigms.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: Tom]
#114057
06/02/09 10:12 PM
06/02/09 10:12 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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My understanding of Romans 5:18 is that all were condemned to die by Adam's actions, and that condemnation was lifted, for all, by Christ's actions. Explaining further, had Christ not intervened, the human race would have perished. Without Christ, death, which is the inevitable result of sin, would have claimed everyone.
However, Christ came, and undid what Adam did. Now every person has a free choice (which was purchased by Christ's blood) of either choosing the way of sin (in which case they will die), or the way of Christ (in which case they will live).
Note:all references to life and death in this post are referring to eternal life and death.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: dedication]
#114061
06/03/09 12:05 AM
06/03/09 12:05 AM
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OP
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Supporting Member 2022
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Posts: 6,706
Canada
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from page 2 Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The law -- God's moral law -- demands the death of the transgressor.
Without the shed blood of Christ, the law is only an instrument declaring that we deserve death, for we have transgressed that law. how did you get from the bible verse to your conclusion? this particular verse says to me that adams sin, and consequently our sin because we will sin brings death. that sin brings death. i cant see anything in that verse that says the moral law demands death along the lines of if you steal you will go to jail. it reads more to me that it is saying if one steals pretty soon no one will trust that one, to mention one consequence. Just another comment -- on Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:and 1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. So death passed unto all men. (mankind)How many are included here? All No qualifications, other than that all are sinners -- death passed unto all. And that's exactly what happened. Every person in this world dies. Adam died. Abraham died. David died. etc. And that would have been the END. Even Enoch and Elijah would have died were it not for the promise. For since by man [Adam]came death, by man [incarnate Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead. What came through Jesus Christ? Notice what it is that came -- RESURRECTION of the dead! The context of this verse is speaking of the literal resurrection from the grave. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.Paul repeats himself here that ALL of Adam's descendants die. And that would have been the end -- there would have been no resurrection for anyone. But see how many will be made alive because of Christ? How many? even so in Christ shall all be made alive.ALL!!15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.So all will be made alive BUT NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME! There is succession of resurrections. "every man in his own order": Or as a more modern translation puts it: In the same way, in Christ all of us will be made alive again.23 But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. When Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life,24 and then the end will come. At that time Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers,1. Christ rises first ("who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead"; Col 1:18) 2. Then God's faithful at the second coming. (Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, Rev. 20:6) 3. After the 1000 years there's the second resurrection. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.Rev. 20:5) John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Last edited by dedication; 06/03/09 12:08 AM.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: Colin]
#114063
06/03/09 01:52 AM
06/03/09 01:52 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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A courthouse? Yes, judgements are rendered on evidence and confessions of men, assessed by our Advocate. A graceous access to salvation from sin and guilt to obtain eternal life: yes. How familiar are you with the sanctuary services and their illustration of salvation? What reading have you done, generally? Just study Leviticus and similiar books or also read our scholars' various or any books?
i have studied leviticus/bible and the sop, and some pioneer writings hence the questions. maybe if i read all those articles, books by faulty, fallible man id be on the same page as you all. 
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: Colin]
#114064
06/03/09 02:25 AM
06/03/09 02:25 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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but the question was where is there judgment to condemnation in those verses, and as far as i can see there is none. the kjv added "judgment to". it isnt in the original, so we are just making up a phrase, seems to me. "you shall surely die." if you drink poison you shall surely die. if you jump in front of a speeding train you shall surely die. more examples could be given. so how do we turn "you shall surely die" into, "i will kill you" unless we have been trained to read that into the phrase? then we have this little nugget: When Adam and Eve realized how exalted and sacred was the law of God, the transgression of which made so costly a sacrifice necessary to save them and their posterity from utter ruin, they plead to die themselves, or to let them and their posterity endure the penalty of their transgression, rather than that the beloved Son of God should make this great sacrifice. The anguish of Adam was increased. He saw that his sins were of so great magnitude as to involve fearful consequences. And must it be that Heaven's honored Commander, who had walked with him, and talked with him, while in his holy innocence, whom angels honored and worshiped, must be brought down from his exalted position to die because of his transgression. Adam was informed that an angel's life could not pay the debt. The law of Jehovah, the foundation of his government in Heaven and upon earth, was as sacred as God himself; and for this reason the life of an angel could not be accepted of God as a sacrifice for its transgression. His law was of more importance in his sight than the holy angels around his throne. The Father could not abolish nor change one precept of his law to meet man in his fallen condition. But the Son of God, who had in unison with the Father created man, could make an atonement for man acceptable to God, by giving his life a sacrifice, and bearing the wrath of his Father. Angels informed Adam that, as his transgression had brought death and wretchedness, life and immortality would be brought to light through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. {1SP 50.2} in the sanctuary who killed the sacrificial victim? the person who had sinned or God? Yes, "judgement" isn't in the Greek, but does it not fit? ... i think that adding words can change the whole meaning of Gods thought. Yes, the sinner slew the sacrifice, but God burned it with holy fire as an acceptable offering for sin to obtain forgiveness, by faith in the promised Messiah, right? ... so it was the sinner who slew the sacrifice, not God. Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. and it is we who killed Jesus. God wants the believer to participate in being saved by divine grace and righteousness, including partaking of the divine nature: how God deals with the wicked on judgement day will be a bit more detatched, won't it, and Rev 20 speaks of literal fire, for you? it seems pretty clear what will happen. but for those who believe in an eternally burning hell the bible also seems to be pretty clear in that regard also. it takes some study to come to the right understanding and undo what they have been trained to see in scripture, not to mention what seems obvious. rev 14:10 and 11 being a recent example on this board. i have shared with non-sdas what the bible says regarding an eternally burning hell. some are relieved, others reject it. of those who reject it, for some its because it seems heresy. they need time to let the Holy Spirit work and convict. for others of those who reject it they get very upset because they havent been doing all the things they really wanted to because they didnt want to burn forever. for others they need to believe that people are going to be tortured and tormented, vengence, you know. ive seen that need among some of us sdas....there was a time i needed people to be punished. i dont anymore. not even for the person who did a job on me and the repercussions are still being suffered decades and generations later.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God
[Re: teresaq]
#114065
06/03/09 02:45 AM
06/03/09 02:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I think the insight that we kill the sacrifice is a good one. It was our sin that resulted in Christ's death. That sin results in death was a lesson the sacrificial service was designed to teach. As our substitute, Christ suffered the death that is the result of sin, instead of us.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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