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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: teresaq]
#114124
06/04/09 01:53 PM
06/04/09 01:53 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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1SM 309
What right had Christ to take the captives out of the enemy's hands?--The right of having made a sacrifice that satisfies the principles of justice by which the kingdom of heaven is governed. He came to this earth as the Redeemer of the lost race, to conquer the wily foe, and, by His steadfast allegiance to right, to save all who accept Him as their Saviour. On the cross of Calvary He paid the redemption price of the race. And thus He gained the right to take the captives from the grasp of the great deceiver, who, by a lie, framed against the government of God, caused the fall of man, and thus forfeited all claim to be called a loyal subject of God's glorious everlasting kingdom. You'll see that I was exactly right in what I said. It says nothing about Christ's earning the right for God to be able to pardon -- not a word. Also, my assertion that she is speaking in Christus Victor terms is spot on: "And thus He gained the right to take the captives from the grasp of the great deceiver." If anything is Christus Victor, this is! And your logic misses the point! Again, there is no dispute that Satan deceives: what are we saved from???? It's not only from the devil!! It's principally from God's own judgement of unbelief!!! That's a legal issue, not just is God's character this or that...! On this quote says, it starts withThe right of having made a sacrifice that satisfies the principles of justice by which the kingdom of heaven is governed. because God forgave us, He made a plan that would pardon us from the consequences of our actions. lets go back to the beginning. Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. eve didnt seem to understand this to mean, I will kill you, or she would have stated it in those words. and we have this amplification. When Adam and Eve realized how exalted and sacred was the law of God, the transgression of which made so costly a sacrifice necessary to save them and their posterity from utter ruin, they plead to die themselves, or to let them and their posterity endure the penalty of their transgression, rather than that the beloved Son of God should make this great sacrifice. The anguish of Adam was increased. He saw that his sins were of so great magnitude as to involve fearful consequences. And must it be that Heaven's honored Commander, who had walked with him, and talked with him, while in his holy innocence, whom angels honored and worshiped, must be brought down from his exalted position to die because of his transgression. Adam was informed that an angel's life could not pay the debt. The law of Jehovah, the foundation of his government in Heaven and upon earth, was as sacred as God himself; and for this reason the life of an angel could not be accepted of God as a sacrifice for its transgression. His law was of more importance in his sight than the holy angels around his throne. The Father could not abolish nor change one precept of his law to meet man in his fallen condition. But the Son of God, who had in unison with the Father created man, could make an atonement for man acceptable to God, by giving his life a sacrifice, and bearing the wrath of his Father. Angels informed Adam that, as his transgression had brought death and wretchedness, life and immortality would be brought to light through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. {1SP 50.2} they were going to die as a result of eating the fruit, not only that the "penalty of their transgression", according to this, was a lifetime of suffering and pain because of evil until we exterminated ourselves. the reality of that happening can be seen in light of the nuclear bomb. if God had not saved noah and the "holy line" in bringing the flood all righteousness would have been exterminated and then they would have exterminated themselves in a most awful bloodbath such as happened in jerusalem in 70ad. we have no idea of how many times we would have exterminated ourselves but for the intervention of God. what the statement says to me is that because we were going to naturaly die as a result of having "sinned" Jesus took pity on us and died in our place. because He lived a perfect life and died we have a chance by letting that perfect life permeate us...He ripped us from satans claim on us to have the right to with us as he pleased. "God's own judgement of unbelief". it sounds like you understand this to mean God saying, if you dont believe in me i will kill you. by the way, since satan and his angels no longer have access to the tree of life how long do they have to live? adam lived to almost 1000 years without it. we dont know how long satan was in existence before he became prideful, how long he had access to that tree which could be a determiner of how long he has....or do we believe satan has the ability to live eternally on his own?i know tom has some really radical understandings that can be shocking, but does he really needed to be treated like a dangerous enemy? i mean, if you look back at what happened to Jesus, who was attacking whom? Yes, evil in action is not pleasant, even for us - we neither like hearing of persecution nor are we yet ready for persecution, but God's gifts are that much greater than the good we do to one another. God's holiness is also the reason sin is dealt with the way it is, by grace, mercifully and justly. Jesus put himself in our place to suffer our condemnation of the law. It was our humanity which he nailed to the cross: our humanity cannot be redeemed from death, since it is sinful and that's not redeemable. Sinful nature is doomed; sinful people are not. Our nature is our debt under the law - for it we have to die, but in the body of Christ we have died to the law, and paid the debt we owe to justice. That's why the best reading I know of for Col 2 and these verses is that moral and ceremonial laws aren't the direct issue - the moral law features indirectly afterward, but the sinful humanity and the debt of death from it which was paid by Christ in nailing it in his body to the tree. Thereafter, we are raised from the dead demanded by the law, that curse Christ became for us, and Christ's mind and character are our new delight, partaking of the divine nature as Jesus promised before he followed God's will to be the Lamb of God. "Killing" is the human word for legally ending a life, but God judges the wicked and the sentence is death: that's holy justice meted out, isn't it? Wouldn't know what word to use instead of "execution", but what about annihilate in hell?
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Colin]
#114126
06/04/09 02:44 PM
06/04/09 02:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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So the right thought would be, "If you eat this, I will annihilate you in hell"?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Colin]
#114140
06/04/09 06:01 PM
06/04/09 06:01 PM
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"Killing" is the human word for legally ending a life, but God judges the wicked and the sentence is death: that's holy justice meted out, isn't it? Wouldn't know what word to use instead of "execution", but what about annihilate in hell? this is where we need to really study the events that will happen at the third resurrection? Jesus resurrects the lost, reads them their sentence then "zaps" them? for elle, and others, who wants bible only we need to look at the bible texts that the sop relies on. i would think that we need to study the burden of sin, guilt and shame, along with this....
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#114149
06/04/09 10:06 PM
06/04/09 10:06 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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So the right thought would be, "If you eat this, I will annihilate you in hell"? How do you deal with our God being a jealous God?
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: teresaq]
#114150
06/04/09 10:08 PM
06/04/09 10:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
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E. Oregon, USA
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"Killing" is the human word for legally ending a life, but God judges the wicked and the sentence is death: that's holy justice meted out, isn't it? Wouldn't know what word to use instead of "execution", but what about annihilate in hell? this is where we need to really study the events that will happen at the third resurrection? Jesus resurrects the lost, reads them their sentence then "zaps" them? for elle, and others, who wants bible only we need to look at the bible texts that the sop relies on. i would think that we need to study the burden of sin, guilt and shame, along with this.... Yes, examining the Bible text is always a good move. I think we can organise a combined study of Bible and SOP, but let's look at the Bible, for the moment.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Colin]
#114156
06/05/09 12:52 AM
06/05/09 12:52 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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T:So the right thought would be, "If you eat this, I will annihilate you in hell"?
C:How do you deal with our God being a jealous God? I don't see how your question follows. It seems to imply that if we accept that God is a jealous God that means He must annihilate people. It seems to me one can be jealous without annihilating. I think if you love someone, you're jealous of that person's attention and love. In our selfishness, we can twist this, of course, but if an unwanted suitor makes advances upon our spouse, we can legitimately feel a righteous indignation and jealously protect our spouse. The Blue Bible says: Qanna is translated as "jealous," "zealous," or "envy." The fundamental meaning relates to a marriage relationship. God is depicted as Israel's husband; He is a jealous God, wanting all our praise for Himself and no one else. Interestingly, the main Portugues and Spanish translations translate this as "zealous" whereas English, French and Italian use "jealous." The Septuagint has "zelotes".
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#114157
06/05/09 01:21 AM
06/05/09 01:21 AM
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So the right thought would be, "If you eat this, I will annihilate you in hell"? If you're talking about Eden, that's probably not the best way to put it, but since there was nothing deadly in the fruit other than God said not to eat it, God is responsible for making eating it a capital offense.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: asygo]
#114158
06/05/09 01:34 AM
06/05/09 01:34 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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That's not the only possible explanation, Arnold. That is, you're suggesting there's only two alternatives:
a.There was something deadly in the fruit.
b.God made eating it a capital offense.
Do you not think another explanation is possible?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#114159
06/05/09 02:06 AM
06/05/09 02:06 AM
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Global Moderator
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Why is it so important to some here, that Christ's death not be seen as the means by which sins of repentant sinners are forgiven?
Of course the cross shows God's love and character, and is the springboard for a changed life, lived in Christ.
But why this endless debate against Christ dying for the forgiveness of sins? That this death gives God the priviledge to forgive sins without setting aside His law?
God isn't out to kill anyone -- but desires that all come to repentance, accept Christ's death for their sins, and live a new life in Christ.
So what's the problem?
In this life sin is pretty much left to play out it's consequences. It shows what sin is and does.
It results in messed up lives, emotional shipwreck, countless wars, strife, pain, hunger, sickness and finally death.
Even the followers of Christ suffer under it's consequences and die. We'd have no hope of a resurrection were it not for Christ's death and resurrection.
But, because of Christ's death and resurrection, God will raise everyone --
And reward everyone with either LIFE or DEATH
but the eternal death does not happen until God fully shows the sinners rebellion and the tremendous price paid for their redemption and the efforts that were made to save them, which they chose to reject.
only then will the fires destroy every trace of sin, including those who chose to cling to sin, instead of accepting LIFE in Christ.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: asygo]
#114160
06/05/09 02:29 AM
06/05/09 02:29 AM
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So the right thought would be, "If you eat this, I will annihilate you in hell"? If you're talking about Eden, that's probably not the best way to put it, but since there was nothing deadly in the fruit other than God said not to eat it, God is responsible for making eating it a capital offense. but did God make it a capitol offense? i think we are all agreed here that it was a test. ylt: Gen 3:3 and of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
Gen 3:4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
Gen 3:5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.' we use this to prove human nonimmortality. if it really means "God will kill you", then i think weve just lost our nonimmortality proof.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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